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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2005-11-18 23:40, Dannydoyle wrote:
Most gamblers themselvs are more advantage players than anything else.

Any good advantage player only makes one or two moves a night at most. He makes sure he has huge bets when he does them so it dosn't seem suspicious.


I was going to leave the first quote alone, but as long as I'm here...

Danny, most gamblers pull slot machine handles. The vast majority of the rest bet the horses or can be found in the sports book. A few million others play online poker and slowly trickle their money away while having a good time. Perhaps instead of "most gamblers" you meant "a tiny fraction of gamblers (are advantage players)," because otherwise I can't make heads or tails of that statement.

As to the second quote, you said "any good advantage player ONLY makes one or two moves a night at MOST" (emphasis mine).

To disprove this statement, whether you were basing it on your own experience or someone else's, I have to come up with but a single "good" cheater that makes several moves a night. Will Filipino Freddie do? He was a famous cheat in Gardena that is on videotape performing the same "hop" over and over and over and over. All night long he hops the cut and deals the cards. No one says a word. Presumably Freddie had done this on more than one occasion.

There you go, a "good" (i.e. "successful") cheat moving more than once or twice. Your experience is to be noted. Perhaps you have indeed been exposed to cheaters that moved infrequently. That doesn't make blanket statements about ALL good cheaters correct.

Do I need to cite more examples?

Without naming names, imagine a dealer in a blackjack game flashing the top card to a partner. Do you really believe that this happens "once or twice" in an evening? Perhaps you haven't been watching the same surveillance tapes I have. They'll do it for hours sometimes!

Chip cups are designed to be passed back and forth from cheater to dealer multiple times! Some of these scams go on for extended periods of time, back and forth. They've won thousands.

I'll say it again: you can't make absolute statements about a topic as varied as cheating. Some cheats move once or twice, true enough. But others move constantly. To try and say that "the good ones" move less is to reveal your ignorance about the existence of the very successful cheats who move from the moment they sit down.

Quote:
Tommy wrote:
In realty someone who holds out cards in a casino, in a poker game at least, would not last a hand because they count the stub, a good cheat would know that.


That's strange. As I type I'm looking at a copy of an as-of-yet unreleased book on poker protection written by one of the best in the business. He devotes about 10 pages to the various methods by which a poker cheat could hold out in a modern casino. Many of these methods are devised to defeat the stub countdown, and at least one of the methods can fly even during the stub countdown. That of course doesn't include the times when the dealer is colluding with the holdout man and mis-counts the stub on purpose. "Would not last a hand" huh? See the above comment on generalizations phrased as absolutes.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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You must be wrong when Glen and Paul agree with you. Smile Will Filipino Freddie do? Is that the best you can up with? He is caught on video, so cross him off the good list. And the blackjack dealers you seen cheating for hours on video can be crossed of the good list also.
The question ain't do card cheats move more than a few times a night but does "Any good" advantage player move more than that.
"Most gamblers" try reading it as, "any good advantage player" . (I think Danny also did not cross one of his Ts.) But I will not a make federal case out of it.
So you found a book that tells how to beat the stub in theory. Sounds like something Filipino Freddie might read to get himself on video again. I reserve judgment until it is published. As for colluding: Stop moving the goal posts, that's cheating. We are talking about how often a good advantage player moves. Not what a card cheat and his army could do and get away with. You would not need be any good if you had all the casino staff in your pocket.

Kid I told you knows nothing, lets see if he tells us how to beat the stub. I bet he don’t.. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
KidCrenshaw
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I bet he doesn't either. Buy the book. If it's the book I'm thinking it is, it's about 500 pages and written by THE man in gambling sleight of hand. Am I right?

"He" is THE authority when it comes to what works and what doesn't. Many magicians envy him and believe to have been duped when they witness his skills. They were not. He's the real deal.

While your cynisim is humorous, I see it as a bit inapropriate - if you're honetly inclined to believe what your are saying and not to arouse chuckles.

It is hard enough to make moves in fast company, it is quite another to do so under the conditions of a camera for reason obvious to everyone here. It is one thing to catch someone you're sitting at the table with. It is quite another to discredit somoeone's abilities simply for being caught on camera.

Having no credentials to back up your statements and convictions, I am left to believe you know little yourself. However Jason would be the first person on this board I would ask for answers to such questions - arse kissing aside.

I enjoy reading your insight on magic, but this is an area in which I disagree.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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To be serious for a moment:
There is a dvd out soon Cheating at Holdem by Malek



I think he is Jasons pal so don't take it that seriously. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Yiannis
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Kid,

the whole deal in cheating is not to get caught. It doesn't matter is you get caught on the table or by the eye of a camera. You got caught... period!

Bad cheats are getting caught. Good ones don't.

Good cheat -- a very rare species.
KidCrenshaw
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Again, I don't think getting caught, by camera or otherwise, dictates a level of skill. A measurement of bad judgent? I'll give you that.

Your assumption that bad cheats are caught, and good ones aren't, is simply false.

Bad cheats get by all the time, good cheats get caught.

The real question, I guess, is how much does judgement play in the definintion of a good cheat? My guess is that it has a great deal to do with it.

However, a bad call on anyones part far from places you in a permanent category. Just because someone got a DWI once in their life far from qualifies them as a "prior/persistent offender." They made a bad call - it happens. What you learn afterwards is what matters most, it's only unfortunate (or is it) that the learning curve in both cheating and DWI's is harsh.

My apologies for pointing out the obvious, but since Yiannis has done so, I thought I would as well.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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No kid a bad call on a cheats part does place him in a permanent category sometimes, the category is called dead.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
KidCrenshaw
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By your own admission, you are wrong.

Of course the outcome could dictate permanance. But if it doesn't, it isn't.

Tommy, I get the feeling you're putting me on with your comments...
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
tommy
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I am putting you on Kid and Jason. Just trying to get something out of him.

I have never been caught cheating that does not make me any good just careful.

I am serious about getting dead. I am entitled to my opinion and in my opinion there is a lot of sand in the desert.

Tommy
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Tommy
Dannydoyle
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OK Jason quit nit picking to show you have some alledged knowlege on the subject.

I did mis write so let me clear it up for everyone.

ACVANTAGE players, whis is my only real knowlege here move EXACTLY as I said.

How can you tell me my experience is wrong? Like in college when I got an F on a paper that asked my OPINION!!! for pity sake give it a rest.

Talk to Simon Lovell for some info.

My point is that I didn't start playing in a casino till the past few years. Heck it wasn't as readily available. So where I played it was a tough breed. I was too scared, even if I DID have the right skill set, which I don't, to even try to cheat. Concequently I became a quite good player period.

That being said I have seen many many guys hurt quite badly for moving for the money against the wrong crowd. For this reason it is better to move less often. If you only get barred from a casino that is one thing. If you get a 1 week hospital visit that is another thing entirely.

These are bigger money games than you usually find at casinos today. If you feel you are good enough to move under these circumstances then great for you. Moving as you and Glen suggest just dosn't fly in the circumstances in which I PERSONALLY find myself.

So forget lectures on history and casino cameras and crap like that. If you would like to experience my world it is easy to find. Then you can tell me I am right or wrong.


Oh and by the way a level of judgement Kid.....IS part of your skill as an advantage player or a guy who moves every hand from the second he sits down.

By the way I have NEVER met anyone who could get away with moving that much Glen. You have to pick your spots no matter which side of the debate you are on.

I figured as long as we were nit picking on speech patturns and such I would chime in.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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Yes you tell him Danny. Cheating in them casino's is for wimps . Smile
I would like to see how long Steve Forte and Filipino Freddie would last in my game if they tried a move every other hand. They would be lucky to get home with any fingers on their hands. And tell them I said so. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
KidCrenshaw
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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Oh and by the way a level of judgement Kid.....IS part of your skill as an advantage player...


Echo, echo, echo ! ! !
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
OK Jason quit nit picking to show you have some alleged knowledge on the subject.


Danny, Jason England is a great card man and knows about card shark methods as well as things like dice and odds and he knows his stuff. Tommy and Paul H also know their stuff to.

Quote:

My point is that I didn't start playing in a casino till the past few years. Heck it wasn't as readily available. So where I played it was a tough breed. I was too scared, even if I DID have the right skill set, which I don't, to even try to cheat. Consequently I became a quite good player period.


I have never played cards in a casino and I would never think about cheating in a casino. The reason is that here in America if you are caught cheating in a casino you will get a record for committing a felony.
Quote:

Moving as you and Glen suggest just doesn’t fly in the circumstances in which I PERSONALLY find myself.


No Danny I am not suggesting that anyone should use the card cheat skills to cheat at cards. In a friendly little game or in a casino. Cheating is wrong and people that cheat do so at their own risk!

Quote:

By the way I have NEVER met anyone who could get away with moving that much Glen. You have to pick your spots no matter which side of the debate you are on.

Danny I have met several card cheats over the years. One was a guy named Carl Jackson who was both a card shark and a pool shark. In fact when he was alive he paid for his house with the punch deal. The punch is a method of cheating where you get the money slow over an evenings time. He also was a very good bottom dealer.

I am not sure why you keep saying things like moving that much. Card cheats do not do moves every hand and cheat only when they think that they can get away with it. And how they cheat depends on who they play with. And what skill level at cards they have. I have also played cards for many years and played with people that could do some very good card work. Also before Casino’s were being built on the rivers of the USA my Dad used to deal blackjack - and I have been hired to deal at card games and hired to spot for cheaters a few times in my life as well.

Second - I do not like to debate or argue in forums. My posting in a forum is just to share information as I know it. And most of the time as I have lived it. If you want to debate/argue points. Find someone else to do it with.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Stilts
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I have really enjoyed reading the comments shared thus far and thought I would ramble a little myself...

I'm simply curious about the forum, and you guys' views on magicians doing "gambling" sleight of hand, or simpley gambling routines in general.

Comparing magicians gambling routines to real card cheating, IMHO is like comparing apples to oranges. While the "mechanics" in both groups share the same moves the psycology behind them is different. It has been stated many times on this board when these types of topics come up that cheating at the card table is not romantic, fun, or glorious. However, a magician looking to entertain his audience wants to show just that.

Take for example a gambling demonstration where the magician talks about how a hustler would use a bottom deal to win a game of poker. The four Kings are put on the bottom of the deck and the magician deals out five hands of poker. All four kings are found in the magicians hand. The magician offers to repeat the demonstration and asks the audience to watch closely to see if they could catch him. The magician deals out another five handed game. The magician asks if anyone saw him deal off the bottom as he rolls the hand at third base to show the kings were dealt to the "sucker", and are not in his hand. This would catch the specators off guard, and as a double whammy the magician rolls his hand to show the four aces.

Sorry for the long explanation, but I think it is important to note the difference here in gambling routines vs. cheating demo's. In the above routine the audience never sees the bottom deal eventhough the magician uses one. There is a great surprise as the magician reveals the "double duke" at the end where the magician is the hero, expert, etc. This routine is very entertaining for someone to watch and the spectators get to see how a bottom deal "could be" used in a game.

I assume that everyone would agree that the above routine would never fly at the card table as laid out. It is missing all of the little details such as: how does the cheat get the cards to the right location, how does he beat the cut, what happens if someone folds after the first round, how does he beat the heat winning back to back pots with blockbuster hands..etc. My point here is that an "authentic" gambling routine is not feasible for a magician to do in most acts. (please note the word most in the previous sentence). It doesn't mean he doesn't understand the how's and why's of a card cheat.

My other thought, (that should go without saying) is that magicians who do gambling demonstrations should know how to play poker, and at the least played in some poker games..

And I guess one more thought. If you'd like to see what some of the card cheats who post on this forum are talking about, try getting invited to card game where you don't know more than one other guy sitting at the table, play on the square, and watch and learn when the heat is on, when its not, when you'd make your move, and when you'd wait it out.

I'd love to hear others thoughts on the subject and sorry for the long rambling above.
Derrick
Dannydoyle
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Glen if you are SO adverse to a debate and discussion might I suggest you simply LECTURE instead of jumping in on a topic that is being debated and stating an opinion and taking a side in the debate.

Of course someone will take issue with it. Isn't that the point of the forum here? Arren't we SUPPOSED to debate and discuss and let others know what we know and learn and argue and hash things out to find some common ground and answers?

I am sorry if I misinturpreted the use of this forum.

I guess we should just go back and any time we disagree with people not say anything. Which brings us to your first post. If you didn't want to debate it why say anything? It was obviously a contested issue? How is it you feel your opinion is above "debate or argue"? It is rediculous to be able to write somethig and it is supposed to be simply uncontested because you don't want to debate or argue.

Last little thing is I have never been in a "friendly" game of poker in my life. Only for money and all friends and alliances, barring those used for cheating, go out the window.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Z
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J I dunno why you even bother.
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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2005-11-20 16:15, Dannydoyle wrote:
Talk to Simon Lovell for some info.


I don't know that so much has ever been communicated in so few words. Danny, you just told me all I need to know about you.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Also Sals DVD will improve your understanding of the subject matter.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Actually, Sal's DVDs are very good. I can do without Rob Stiff, but the actual card material is quite good.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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“MR Scott was no doubt an aberration among card men…”
“For almost 25 years I have obsessively tried to stay on top of the entire arena of cheating and yet to run into any mechanic or crew that utilized this system (the punch) under fire...
“Where you’re the dealer with players sitting to your right and left literally sitting on top of the deck: these are tough conditions to say the least and even the very best mechanic had better really “pick his spots”. (Dealing Seconds)

-Steve Forte-

Which makes me wonder if we if we can cross of the gambling sleight list, second dealing and the punch in poker, well for all those who are not an aberration among card men. It seems at the very least we can cross of dealing seconds often.
I personally don’t know anyone that deals seconds at the poker table and I never have.

What say you?

Regards

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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