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JasonEngland
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MXRay,

I would guess that the reason magicians don't attempt to shuffle-track is the same reason that most blackjack players don't attempt to do so. It takes work.

As you said, it isn't rocket science, and almost anyone with normal mental abilities can learn to count, to map a shuffle, and then to learn which segments get shuffled into one another with any particular shuffle, but all of that takes effort.

Seeing as how most blackjack players don't even bother to properly memorize a complete basic strategy table, this lack of effort isn't surprising.

Keep in mind that to a lot of people, the progression from playing their whims, to learning a good basic strategy, to counting, to shuffle tracking, is too much like making blackjack a job. Since most players play only once or twice a year, and for negligible amounts of money, it just isn't worth their time investment.

Jason

Posted: Nov 23, 2005 10:57pm
Tommy,

We probably have more poker players than you have people. That makes it a little easier for a cheat to find a game in another town after being caught.

Incidentally, the number of 'name' poker players that have some cheating (if only collusion) in their backgrounds is larger than you might think.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Hi Jason

Yeh but our boys still give the yanks a good fight when go over for the poker. Talking about fights when are they going to find someone who can box?
The undisputed heavyweight boxing champ from our little country must be getting tired of waiting.

The number could be smaller than I think but not larger. They are all at it, if you ask me.

:)

Tommy

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Tommy
Dannydoyle
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I didn't think it fair to hijack the thread and talk Blackjack so I sent Jason an detained PM about the count.

In short I use a basic hi low count with NO side count of anything aces or 5s. If you play blackjack you know what I mean.

As far as shuffle tracking goes I don't do it. I play "primarily" 6 deck games in which a card shuffeler is employed, so it is all but useless to try. I attack a shoe for several reasons which I explained to Jason, PM me if interested.

Tracking is a LOT of work. A LOT of work. Simply put it is easier to count than track.

Counting is tough work. It requires concentration from the second you sit. If your count is off, your betting with the wrong advantage and losing money plain and simple. Counting is work so that is why most don't do it either.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Unknown419
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Hey Tommy, Yiannis and any one else it seems as though we play differently than ya'll do over here in America so neither of us are wrong it's just different cultures and styles. For the record I mostly play in laxed house games and hole in the wall joints.

Everyone may God Bless You and have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

Doc
tommy
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Doc

I agree . It’s easy to forget when we are all talking about cheating that cheating is more than one subject, from game to game and place to place things are different. Even one casino poker game in one casino can be a different subject in another but on the face of it they can look similar. What will fly all depends on …well Steve Forte says it all when talking generally about the difference between casino and private cheating:

“David Malek: Are you saying that cheating in the casino, and cheating in the private world of gambling are two completely different subjects?

Steve Forte: Yes. Many see the casino cheater in a classical sense, an expert mechanic capable of amazing technical skill. Yet the truth is, in the majority of the most successful casino scams in our history, technical skill plays a minor role. It's all about the application.
Whereas a magician might be familiar with different false shuffles for controlling a slug, he may not know how such elementary technique has been used to scam millions. And, he may not realize that the most successful scams are not as spectacular as many think, that most involved massive conspiracies and inside collusion, that many employed the most blatant techniques imaginable, and so on.

You might think that a false shuffle is a false shuffle, no matter where the scam takes place. But although there will always be similar technical aspects, once you get past the move, there's nothing remotely close about some Gin Rummy player getting cheated in a small town gin mill, and a professional crew 'going for the money' in a billion dollar casino with ten cameras on the game.
The opponent, mechanics, psychology, surroundings, and the consequences of getting caught are all different. When the two worlds mesh, confusion is inevitable.”

http://www.elmagicshop.com/cgi-bin/webc.......iew.html

Which is why I said to Danny base what you think will fly on your own experience alone. For example if I said this move will not fly at the table, I would be wrong, because it all depends…. “You might think that a false shuffle is a false shuffle, no matter where the scam takes place.” That is a great line to remember.

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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Tommy,

Thanks for the description of the situation that work in over there. I do believe you are correct, those types of games do exist over here. But as Doc says "laxed house games and hole in the wall joints" are practically ubiquitous over here, if you know where to look. Espicially in these poker crazy days. But as I've heard Doc mention, poker is not the only game in town. I know he plays Tonk and Lowball and people even play Sheepshead and Cribbage for fair amounts of money.

And as I've said, there is a whole bunch of money available to the person who has a mind to take it. I have played poker with complete strangers (not for huge money, but for decent money) in games so lax that I swear to God I could crawl under the table if I wanted to.

It does sound as if the gambling arena is something of a "village" over there. that's a shame. America, and even certain states and cities are so vast that I know a dilligent person can find new games and players all the time. At some point their reputation may precede them, but that is completely avoidable if one wants to avoid it.

Vandy
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
Craig Krisulevicz
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So...who's up for a game?
Who is John Galt?
winstonwolf
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Jason, I noted your unfavourable comments about Simon Lovell. Care to expand your opinion in more detail?

I'm honestly not trying to start an argument, I'm just interested in your opinion. I'm neutral on Simon, I've only ever seen his magic stuff but I know he has some cheating videos out there.
bishthemagish
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As far as card shark methods I feel that the student (Like myself) should keep things in perspective. One of the questions is that if a magician that knows this kind of manipulation could or would go into a card game, cheat and not get caught.

That leads to the question if many of the past masters like, Charlie Miller, Jack Pyle, Dai Vernon, John Scarne and others. Ever cheated for money.

My thoughts on this subject is that when learning and reading about these legends in magic and what they wrote about we should keep things in perspective.

Because from my own personal point of view magic is foremost an entertainment. That is that I learn these things to use at shows. I learn magic to entertain an audience. My interest in card shark magic was because of an interest that later led to me being able to use it to book more shows as an authority on the subject in the eyes of a lay audience. And that of course is a point I want to make.

When talking about and reading about magic and magicians one must remember that magicians use myth and story to look bigger than life. Part of that bigger than life is the promo that they print. This of course is used to book shows that can range from TV appearances to writing books and now doing DVD's.

One of the most interesting story around a magician is the story of John Scarne and his way of cutting to the aces. That he did in front of several name casino people. But when asked to cut the aces and do it for a magicians group or by magicians. He never did it. I often wonder why?

From the point of view of the lay audience I feel that if the audience THINKS that the magician has high skill then the magician can get away with doing a lot of easy stuff in his act mixed with some skill. Then the audience will think that all the magic in the program is of high skill.

Okito talks about this in his book Okito on magic when he writes about Malini.

My point of view on all this is that I feel that there are a lot of magicians out there that do card shark stuff in their act and say that they have cheated in a game or sessioned with cheaters but have never really played the game. I find that sort of interesting because part of magic is the myth and the promo that we come up with to book shows, and sell products to magicians.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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JasonEngland
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I don't know Simon (we've met once I think), so my comment wasn't directed at him as a person. Nor as a magician.

I simply don't think he's gambling expert. Oh, if you want to know a little about the push-off second deal he can certainly fill you in. But he isn't what I would consider an expert on modern cheating.

Incidentally, I liked Billion Dollar Bunco, though I think the format is flawed (give me a break with the whole "Freddy" thing). But I found a few fun things and I admit I learned a few things about some of the bar bets.

But if Simon is your "go to" guy for up to date, modern cheating information, I think you may be in for a surprise when what you know (or think you know) is turned upside down.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
mook
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How ironic you should say such a thing about Simon, Jason...

It's funny- the different perceptions on card cheating. From my own personal knowledge, I can tell you that Doc is the real deal, which I believe most of you know already. From what I can tell from Tommy's posts, he knows what he's talking about too.

I have dealt casino poker in A.C. I always followed procedures, but had no idea how much cheating could happen, despite this. After attending a Game Protection Seminar by Sal Piacente, my eyes were opened. I noticed crossfiring (communication) among regular players, who were showing each other their hands. As time went on, I couldn't believe the things that I saw. I never said a word to the bosses. I was concerned about what would happen to me if I did. I did, however, look deliberately at the cheats to let them know that I saw what they were doing and to knock it off. Recently, I learned that poker was once called "the cheating game." How appropriate!

Through the years I learned that with some cheats, the amount of moves per night depended on many circumstances, like "is there any heat (suspicion)," "how much money is involved," "did the mark (sucker) show," etc. On Sal's new poker dvd, he has a career cheat who has never been caught. He gives up his moves, but doesn't show his face. From what I hear, this guy has just a few moves that have made him a ton of money and the moves are great.

Sal said that pro-cheaters don't always have the best moves, but all that's required is the guts to do it. Many people have the talent/moves, but not the gonads to pull it off, some vice versa. For exmaple, Filipino Freddie- I've seen video of him "false shuffling" (for lack of a better term), where he breaks the deck in 2, but when he goes to riffle, the 2 halves never even touch. In this case, no talent, large guts.

A lot of money is played in both casino and private poker games. Rich people like to gamble too. There are games at country clubs, among businessmen, celebrities, professional athletes, etc. And you can bet, cheating happens in many of them. It would be hard to disprove me as many cheaters aren't likely to announce what they do.
Shawn74
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Bishthemagish,

Don't know how reliable this info is, or it may just be magician folklore. But I remember reading or hearing somewhere that The Profesor, Larry Jennings, Charlie Miller and that whole crew of cardmen of that period would play cards together, the whole object being to out cheat the other players without being caught blatantly cheating. If you were caught out, then you were out of the game. Now, considering they were all cheating, and everyone knew that everyone else was cheating, I don't know that we could actually consider it cheating.

Just my two cents
Shawn
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JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2005-11-28 01:43, mook wrote:
How ironic you should say such a thing about Simon, Jason...


Mook,

Actually it isn't ironic at all. I'm allowed (last I checked) to have an opinion of someone else's status in the gambling community. Simon does a few nice moves, and knows more than most magicians, but I still don't consider him an expert in gambling and cheating (like many of the magicians on this board).

Nor do I consider myself an expert in gambling and cheating. I've been studying those subjects for about 14 years now, but I still consider myself a beginner in those worlds. I've met a handful of people that I consider to be real experts and all of them have 2 or 3 times the years of experience that I have, and some have (or had) even more. More importantly, the few experts that I've met have been actively involved in the industry for many years. I haven't, so I wouldn't dream of calling myself an expert. You generally have to have dealt the games and spent years in the industry to qualify as an expert in my opinion. There are other routes, but not many.

Here's something I wrote about myself almost 2 years ago, on this board:

"To give you an example of where I think I fall in the grand scheme of things, I own a medium-sized card magic library (almost 400 books), a small mathematics library (about 100 books), and a small gambling library (about 120 books). Only about 10 - 12 of my gambling books are devoted to cheating, although many have sections or chapters devoted to cheating. I've been studying the subjects of gambling and cheating for about 12 years now and consider myself a rank beginner with little or nothing to offer the 10 or so "serious" guys that I know about. I've met a half-dozen or so "real" cheats that have moved in casinos in some capacity, and I don't know any of them well enough to ask them for favors of any sort, although I know them well enough to ask my "beginner" questions from time to time."

All of that still holds true today. I consider Forte to be the most knowledgeable all around person in the gaming industry today. Your buddy Sal Piacente is also very knowledgeable. He's dealt the games, worked in security, and been involved in the industry for many years. That's how you become an expert. I've done none of that, and as far as I know, neither has Simon.

If your remark was another reference to Takedown, then perhaps you think I use that show as some sort of qualification in the gaming world? Give me a break. Just because I was on that show doesn't mean all the stuff in the above paragraph isn't still true. The show was fiction, designed by producers to look real. It was fun to do and I learned a lot about how tv shows are made. But I didn't learn anything about how casinos are cheated!

Relax.

By the way, I sent you a PM a few weeks ago on this very board. You didn't respond. Poor form.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Jay Newton
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Quote:
The show was fiction, designed by producers to look real.


See, now that's real cheating Smile
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-28 13:14, Shawn74 wrote:
Bishthemagish,

Don't know how reliable this info is, or it may just be magician folklore. But I remember reading or hearing somewhere that The Profesor, Larry Jennings, Charlie Miller and that whole crew of cardmen of that period would play cards together, the whole object being to out cheat the other players without being caught blatantly cheating. If you were caught out, then you were out of the game. Now, considering they were all cheating, and everyone knew that everyone else was cheating, I don't know that we could actually consider it cheating.

Just my two cents
Shawn

Thank you for posting this information Shawn I found it interesting reading.

Glenn Bishop
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halcon
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Bish and Shawn here it is straight from Larry Jennings website

"During this time, Larry, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Ron Wilson, and Tony Giorgio would regularly play poker with the provision that you could cheat. However, if you got caught you would have to forfeit your pot and leave the table. At one game, Larry grabs Giorgio’s hand to reveal a palmed card."

story here>>> here


Halcon
tommy
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Thanks Halcon.

Most cheating moves are hard to prove. Even if you know some one just made a move. The palm is an exception, and one of the most dangerous things to try at the table because of the proof element. Even bottom dealing for example, how sure can you be that a card was just dealt from the bottom, bearing in mind you have no replay button. It’s one thing for us to critique a magicians move and quite a different matter to accuse someone of cheating in a real game.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2005-11-28 16:30, tommy wrote:
Thanks Halcon.

Most cheating moves are hard to prove. Even bottom dealing for example, how sure can you be that a card was just dealt from the bottom, bearing in mind you have no replay button. It’s one thing for us to critique a magicians move and quite a different matter to accuse someone of cheating in a real game.


Doc John once told me that a buddy of his was dealing when a girl at the table said "hey you're taking the second card!!" Hey just said "no I'm not, besides, what good would that do when I have no possible way of knowing what the second card is?" LOL
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2005-11-28 15:51, halcon wrote:
Bish and Shawn here it is straight from Larry Jennings website

"During this time, Larry, Dai Vernon, Charlie Miller, Ron Wilson, and Tony Giorgio would regularly play poker with the provision that you could cheat. However, if you got caught you would have to forfeit your pot and leave the table. At one game, Larry grabs Giorgio’s hand to reveal a palmed card."

story here>>> here


Halcon


Thanks halcon for the link - I wish the wrote more about it.

Glenn
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tommy
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Vandy

He did not, by any chance, say she was name Minnie did he.

Now here's the story bout Minnie the Moocher
She was a lowdown hoochie coocher
She was the roughest and the toughest frail
But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale

Hidee-Hidee-Hidee-hey
Hedee-Hedee-He
Hodee-Hodee-ho

The truth often gets in the way of a good story. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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