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mxray
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WilliamHerrick, I know you were joking, but while getting "backroomed" still happens, it has (for the most part) really changed from the days of the mob.
For cheaters, detainment is usually until the actual police can arrive and make an arrest.
For counters today, it is usually merely harrassment, unless they had been previously read "the tresspass" card, which previously legally barred them from ever coming back on the property. If they have been "tresspassed" and return they can legally be arrested the moment they enter the casino..

A few years ago, a counter was backroomed and physically injured and successfully sued for a large sum. Also, in recent years there had been a few cases of counters suing for illegal detainment, ( where they were detained against their will but never arrested ). As a result, things have changed slightly .
For example, I know of one counter who was asked to step away from a blackjack table, ( known as "getting the tap"), he did so and was told he couldn't play anymore blackjack (a typical official barring) and then, surprisingly, was also told "Follow me" apparently to get "backroomed". He told them if all they were accusing him of was advantage blackjack play, they had no legal right to detain him against his will, so he was just going to leave. He turned and walked toward the exit, with security following him, yelling "Sir, we really need to speak with you" and trying to intimidate him into stopping, but he walked out the door and that was that.
Basically, he called their bluff and they backed down.

Since they failed to "tresspass" him, it would be real interesting to see what would happen if he played blackjack there again, though they could just lie and claim they did read it to him, (there would be no one around to dispute it) and possibly arrest him that way.
MXRay
Dannydoyle
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Concequences? depends on where and if you are caught.

Not caught then no problem!

Caught in a casino it is a felony. Punishable depending on what they catch you cheating at. Believe it or not a guy rigging slots is in for a worse time than a guy who holds out at the poker table. Many poker cheats get black booked for fist offenses. Many slot cheats who rig the machines from the inside, get serious time. Depends on the casino's exposure how far they are willing to procecute. Since poker is a raked game rather than a house edge game they don't't "generally" go after people hard as a first timer. It depends on the situation.

Caught in a friendly home game? perhaps banned and a social pariah! Never to be asked back again and everyone knowing you as a cheat. Bad enough for some people. I refer to this as the "Lizzie Bordon treatment". She was shunned after killing her parents and getting away with it.

Caught in a less frinedly environment? Can varry all the way from a slap in the face all the way up to a risk of life. Seriously get the wrong people crossed and it is bad. Some people get downed right crankey when you try to steal their money. That is what you do when you cheat, your stealing. Steal from the wrong guy and it is a bad decision.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
williamHerrick
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Danny, I didn't think of that re: cheating in casinos; different treatment depending on which game you are cheating at (i.e., slots vs. poker).

BTW, I answered my own question about criminal penalties in Vegas casinos by googling "cheat nevada penalties" and finding the page: http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/ (I don't know how up to date this page is).

Here are the penalties in brief:

Quote:
NRS 465.083 Cheating.

It is unlawful for any person, whether he is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game.

NRS 465.088 Penalties for violation of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive.

1. A person who violates any provision of NRS 465.070 to 465.085, inclusive, is guilty of a category B felony and shall be punished:

(a) For the first offense, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or by both fine and imprisonment.

(b) For a second violation of any of these provisions, by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $10,000. The court shall not suspend a sentence of imprisonment imposed pursuant to this paragraph, or grant probation to the person convicted.

(c) For a third violation of any of these provisions, by house arrest with high speed internet access, the felon being required to answer all questions on cheating posted at the MagicCafe for a period not less than 6 hours and not to exceed 10 hours per day.


Hope this helps Smile ,
--William
Dannydoyle
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William the world of criminal law and how it is applied is a vast difference from what is on the books sorry my friend. there is a huge difference as I know both casino people and people who do the procecuting.

It becomes a matter of discression on the part of the DA. HE generally speaking is more concerned with punishing people who take money directly from the casino such as slot cheats than someone else.

Many casinos simply bar card cheats at the poker room as opposed to even calling the police. They often treat them as card counters in blackjack. I don't care what the law says, if they never get called, it is irrelivant.

Second of all the penalties you put up DO have variations in them now don't they? this means different people are treated differently, thus making my point for me!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
steve j
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I do think that this whole issue in vegas with cheating may have improved however in other games it hasn't. There still exists the idea of the back room treatment for the cheater and I unfortunatly almost recieved it a few times, the card game that I was at almost caught me when the thought that they heard something from the deck while I was dealing, fortunately I wasn't bottom dealing, I was palming out a few cards. After that I have slowed down the cheating a bit, I don't think that it's really worth it and since I am now gaining a reputation all over as a magician throughout the games and my college I really can't find too many games where there won't be someone who knows what I can do. So just be carful and if you decide to start to cheat regularly you have to cut back on the magic because that clues all the fish in the sea to what you may be able to do.
tommy
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Average people kill more people than the mafia. So your much safer cheating the mafia.

If you cheat 9 guys in a poker game only one guy will be the average. That stands to reason. Smile If the average don't kill you the other 8 will.

Your theory might be right but who wants to test it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
williamHerrick
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Don't know if anyone is still reading this thread, but I ran across a rather unusual punishment for a cheater in England 228 years ago...

Quote:
In October 1777, at Norfolk Quarter Sessions, at Norwich, a Norwich tradesman, whose name is not given, was found guilty of cheating at cards. He was fined 20 Pounds and sentenced to six month's imprisonment in Norwich Castle 'without bail or mainprize'.

In case the fine of 20 Pounds was not paid by the end of the six months, it was ordered that he should 'stand on the pillory for one hour, with his ears nailed to the same'.


Ouch...

--William
tommy
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I have heard people say; "I will pin his ears back if I catch him!"
I did not known what it meant until today.

Now I know why I have never fancied having my ears pierced; that must have been one of my ancestors and a feeling I have inherited. Smile

By the the way "777" is a Royal Pontoon and pays double, I seem to recall and beats a 10 and an Ace.
Pontoon is Black-Jack to you guys over the pond there in the USA. I have not played it since I was a kid so I am not sure.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Whit Haydn
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For some fascinating real world stories of the risks and perks of a lifetime of cheating in many different places and situations, check out this thread on Scoundrels Forum:

http://whithaydn.com/smf/index.php?topic=336.0
Dannydoyle
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Does the mafia still even kill people?LOL
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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Vinny still kills me! Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Whit Haydn
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Quote:
On 2005-12-16 11:59, Dannydoyle wrote:
Does the mafia still even kill people?LOL


Ummm...Yes. Yes they do.
Dannydoyle
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Ok that was a joke sorry
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Whit Haydn
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One of the things that were often done to card cheats who were caught back in the 1840's is that they were "done up."

"The boys did him up."

George Devol mentions this practice in "40 years a Gambler on the Mississippi."

This meant that the offender's ears were cut off and the eyes gouged out. This was considered a fair punishment for a card cheat.
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2005-11-26 11:50, mxray wrote:
WilliamHerrick, I know you were joking, but while getting "backroomed" still happens, it has (for the most part) really changed from the days of the mob.
For cheaters, detainment is usually until the actual police can arrive and make an arrest.
For counters today, it is usually merely harrassment, unless they had been previously read "the tresspass" card, which previously legally barred them from ever coming back on the property. If they have been "tresspassed" and return they can legally be arrested the moment they enter the casino..

A few years ago, a counter was backroomed and physically injured and successfully sued for a large sum. Also, in recent years there had been a few cases of counters suing for illegal detainment, ( where they were detained against their will but never arrested ). As a result, things have changed slightly .
For example, I know of one counter who was asked to step away from a blackjack table, ( known as "getting the tap"), he did so and was told he couldn't play anymore blackjack (a typical official barring) and then, surprisingly, was also told "Follow me" apparently to get "backroomed". He told them if all they were accusing him of was advantage blackjack play, they had no legal right to detain him against his will, so he was just going to leave. He turned and walked toward the exit, with security following him, yelling "Sir, we really need to speak with you" and trying to intimidate him into stopping, but he walked out the door and that was that.
Basically, he called their bluff and they backed down.

Since they failed to "tresspass" him, it would be real interesting to see what would happen if he played blackjack there again, though they could just lie and claim they did read it to him, (there would be no one around to dispute it) and possibly arrest him that way.
MXRay


mxray is essentially correct here.

I did want to add one thing though. If I remember correctly, the reading of the trespass warning expires after a certain point. I want to say it's 90 or 180 days or something like that. Perhaps as long as a year or two, but I'm not sure.

This makes sense, since being told to leave the premises in 1975 wouldn't likely have much effect on your legal standing to enter the joint again in 2005. At some point those warning become out of date and no judge will seriously consider them.

Now if you tried to walk back in 24 hours later you might have a problem and the casino would likely have a legitimate beef.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Casino's in the UK are all private clubs. If they, for any reason, want to ban you, then that is what they do. They will lift the ban if and when they feel like it. Very often they give no reason at all for the ban and they do not need by law. You must be a member of the casino to get in, here in the UK, and you must sign in every time you enter.

Cheating in a casino at an house game like BlackJack and cheating at Poker in a casino could result in very differnt consequences: When you cheat at poker you are cheating the players not the casino and the Poker players can wait outside the casino for you and meat out what ever. BlackJack players would not even care if you cheated at that because your cheating the casino.

Chew on that before thinking that things have changed.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Wizard291
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Was performing at a venue last week that had a door to the cellar, enormous old oak door, covered in old issues (mostly) worn of the Times (UK Newspaper). First article that caught the eye was regarding 3x English chaps who'd been caught cheating in Paris - have the photos but unsure as to how to load them ... if someone in on the IT here can PM I'll gladly send them over to share here.

Ripping reading - the article was printed (front page) in 1845.
honus
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Anybody read this book yet?

http://tinyurl.com/8kus7

Interesting, and presents the question: is the whole book a lie?
Vandy Grift
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I've read it.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
T. Joseph O'Malley
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Yeah I've read it.

I thought that the whole thing with the title being different on the cover of the book (History of playing cards in America) was very clever and cute.
tjo'
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