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rossmacrae
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Quote:
A phone call to the event planner a day before showtime will likely cure all of these problems

I have learned that very thing since my earlier days, and make phone contacts for individuals a part of every Monday's duties, and ongoing contacts with event planners are important as well.

Quote:
I hate to post this however in a thread like this one and keep it going.

Maybe a moderator could lock it as both sides agree that it is getting nowhere.
Too bad.

Maybe there's no conclusion to be reached, but it looks to me like there are still some good points being made. Does the topic make you uncomfortable?

Posted: Dec 8, 2005 8:20pm
Quote:

go ahead and resume the name calling, that will get us somewhere.

Neither the thread as a whole, nor even the sum (rather than individual details) of my postings in it, can fairly be characterized simply as a flame war. Valuable discussion has gone on - possibly some of my posts have furthered it. If there has been the occasional epithet, that's like when we in Washington call similar discussions on the House floor "frank and earnest."
Al Angello
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Eternal Order
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Ross baby
Don't hold it in any more, just take a deep breath, let it all out, and tell us how you really feel. Thers's only 5 pages of stuff written here so far.
GO FOR IT BIG GUY
Al
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rossmacrae
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I'm never one to hold back, even when nobody wants to hear me.

Some call it a character flaw, I see it as proof that I shoulda been in the guvvamint. How the world might be different today ... [*shudder*]
sdgiu
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Quote:
On 2005-12-01 12:40, Alan Munro wrote:
I had a performance scheduled at a local church. However, after passing up other offers to perform on that date, they cancel, citing the reference to "psychic demonstrations" on the main page of my site. Are people really so naive as to not know the difference between a theatrical performer and a "psychic"?

I don't understand why these people waste my time. I thought all of the "witchburning" was over!


First let me say that what they did was wrong.

But, let me get this straight, nobody here has "EVER" had anybody cancel for what they thought was a silly reason. Is that about the gist of it? And Obviously/unfortunately some people "ARE" that naive. What can you do???

On the matter of "witchburning", I believe that you and most everyone else here has proven that that practice is still going strong.

Come on people, you lost a gig, or had a problem that happened to be at a church. It should not have happened, but are you going to spend the rest of your life crying & complaining over it?

Get over it, move on. Otherwise people will get to where they run when they see you coming.

I hope you have better experiences in the future, and you don't have problems with anyone, most of all churches. I work nearly exclusively in churches and some of them are better than others. I'll let you in on a secret though, they are just people, like us. Smile Say it ain't so little bob.

Anyway, although this is a terribly weighty issue that seems to merit a lifetime of study and debate, hope you all work this out.
Steve Smile
JesterMan
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On 2005-12-07 13:43, JohnCressman wrote:Heck, my MECHANIC does amazing things when my car doesn't work. He waves his wrench and then makes it work...
Is that before or after he makes your wallet (or at least its contents) vanish? Smile

It seems to me that much of the productive use of this thread ended after the suggestion of getting a contract. This is a reasonable response, and though some have mentioned it being a turn-off, I have yet to have a show lost from sending one out, asking for its return along with a modest deposit. As for keeping the others happy, having a deposit does not preclude that. In fact, with no deposit, they just fired you, and there is no good will in that. If you had a deposit, and returned it due to their sincere, if misguided second thoughts, then you can get (possibly) some good will.

I would also consider the split of the web site/s. After losing a friend years ago due to his leaving magic based on his perceived conflict with the churches' teachings, I understand the reluctance that church may have had. (I am not saying I agree with them, nor their actions; just, I see where THEY are coming from.) I find it odd, in any event, that there is this problem; the first trick I learned was taught to me by a seminarian at my father's church. Oh, it was a CARD trick, too. I am sooo burning! Smile (Well, if I believed in that sort of thing. . .)
JM Smile Smile

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p.b.jones
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This is a reasonable response, and though some have mentioned it being a turn-off, I have yet to have a show lost from sending one out,


Hi,
And you know this because? if I was/am a member of a group of friends, we where holding a charirty event which due to lack of support we had to cancel which meant canceling the act and the act demanded a fee/cancellation fee, none of the organisation (me apart) wanted to use the act again ever! and we are talking 30 of the top hitters under age 45 in my home town of 8000 each with a lot of influence and well respected including the mayor of the town, area (seveal LOCAL TOWNS) bank manager ext ext

phillip
JesterMan
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Quote:
On 2005-12-09 21:06, p.b.jones wrote:
This is a reasonable response, and though some have mentioned it being a turn-off, I have yet to have a show lost from sending one out,

Hi,
And you know this because? phillip

I have this experience due to entertaining on and off since 1974. No one has ever cited this as a reason for not booking, or given ANY indication that they were at all disturbed by the agreement or deposit. I've had bookers ask me, with the expectation that I would ask for this, as they are calling me as a professional ("What kind of deposit. . .?", or, "How can I make my deposit?".) I can't speak for the UK, having never performed there, but in my area, it works to both of our benefits.

As for your comments; sorry, I can't tell if what you wrote is a hypothetical, or a real circumstance. In any event---Frankly, why should the magi, or any entertainer, be stuck on the other side? In every agreement, I have a 30-day exit clause. That gives them time to get their ducks in a row, and me time to get booked if they decide that they can't, as long as they decide that 30 + days in advance. If they decide after that reasonable period, it should be my choice to give the good will. Without some commitment on their side, why should I not hold myself up for the highest bidder, and be able to cancel THEM at the last minute, and be held harmless, legally? I've had the opportunity. . . I wouldn't, however. The agreement & deposit protects THEM, too! If they can't deal with a deposit, then they can get an amateur, or take their chances that I might still be available when they call at the last minute.

In this case (late date cancellation), why should our fellow member be shut out of another booking because they were slovenly in doing their 'due diligence'? Without an agreement of some sort, he is out in the cold. . . . And THEY could be, too!
JM Smile Smile

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Powermagic
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Lets remind everyone that the show was booked then cancelled so yes it is obvious someone made a stink about"magick" being used.
Lets remind everyone THEY CALLED the OP.
Get all bookings, even birthdays, in contract form to avoid this.

Most of the problems are with churches that call themselves CHRISTIAN churches and the more south you go the worse they can be.

Yes, anyone who cannot tell the difference from a DEMONSTRATION or SHOW is uneducated and it would seem to be more from Christian schools and churches.
But don't confuse all churches who are CHRIST based to be grouped as CHRISTIAN CHURCHES. You will hardly have problems with Catholic churches for example.
Hmmm why can they get it is all just tricks yet some who still confuse and sometimes abuse the literal weakly translated bible as truth that all magic is bad.
My neighbor is a J. Witness and they follow the bible as the ONLY truth and yet know that what I do is not evil, nor think I have "POWERS"

Sure, it helps if you have a religious theme, but then I do agree with the person who was silly to state that to perform for a Christian institution, one should be Christian. IN the context of a religious show, then I agree. It is best to know and believe what you are pushing.
But if not a bible show, than that thought of being of the same faith is just more right wing Republican Christian hooey.

They called him. He did not call them.

Have performed for many religions and the only ones that have been issues were "Christian” Schools and Fundamental Christian churches who try to site OLD testament passages that speak of Wizards and Magicians being taboo.

So if they do not GET what was translated into English was not equal to what they were talking about centuries ago, then yes those people are uneducated and naive.
Magic Spank
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I have to admit, this topic is way to long to explore every single post before posting my thoughts.

So here they are, though they may have been stated already and were not requested...

The reason some people don't like magic for "moral" reasons isn't so much superstition or "you're imitating god". It's because they believe as I do, that deception in any form is morally corrupt.

In ANY form. That includes deception for the purposes of entertainment.

Muhammed Ali is a magician who you may refer to in this regard. He is Muslim and I believe he explains every trick after he does it because it is against the Muslim belief to mess up someone's head with deception.

I agree with this belief and do not perform magic because of it. I am not Muslim, I just believe the same thing. Many Christians believe the same.

I will do magic for friends and family, but I will never leave anyone in a state where they are concerned or their mind is preoccupied with how it was done. I'd rather just tell them. We still experience the enjoyment, the suspension of disbelief for a moment afterwards, I just don't want them staying up all night worrying about it.

And I think they respect me all the more.

Rob
Mr.Wizard
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Rob,

I too am a very religious person. I am a memberof FCM, and a man of faith.

I have heard your position put forth before; and I respect your belief. However, as with most who hold it, there is a hole in the concept.

Many Christians say deception in any form is wrong. Yet they have no problem with a movie like "Passion of the Christ" that is nothing but deception. After all, its all fake its a movie!

When looked at, where we come to is a place where what they really are is fearful of what they can not explain. They KNOW its a movie so they feel there is no deception. Because they do not know how the trick is done, they feel that is deception.

Problem is, that falls apart when you point out there are hundreds of things about that movie, from what is a best boy to special effects, that they really don't understand or know how it works.

Like it or not, it really comes down to fear. It is the only honest place to be, and the only one I respect.

If someone says, "I am fearful of this, because I think it is a road to hell". I may not agree with them (in this case I do not), but I respect them and their faith, and the attempt to please God and/or Jesus Christ as they see fit.

However, I do not agree with them attempting to force their version of scripture on anyone else, especially those who understand it far more than they do.

It is really the same as those around here who claim to follow wicca, or other kinds of "nature based" faiths. If that is really what they believe, and they honestly follow that, then I respect it. In truth, if they shove a stick in the ground and say that stick is God, I respect it. I don't believe it, but I do respect it, and I will take up arms and give my life to defend their right to believe that.

However, in truth, most who follow that kind of path, do so not because they are positive in that belief, but rather, are anti-christian. I have no respect for that, because that is a bigot, which you might notice is what they try so hard to project onto Christians.

The point?

It is their money. I can show you silly belief and bigots anywhere you'd like to see them. I can show you honest people of faith too. As such, to thine own self be true.

It is just a show. Trust me when I say there are schools out there who think I am a huge jerk and will never have me back. Very few, but they are out there...

...like the group who believes I stuck in a "secret religious message" when I did the arrow card.

However, the vast majority think what I do is the best they have ever seen.

So, as you travel through this world my brothers, whatever be your goal....

....keep your eye upon that doughnut, and not upon the hole.
Magic Spank
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I certainly agree with Mr Wizard. My belief is based upon the idea that I don't want anyone worrying too much about my tricks. I want enjoyment only, not concern.

Best-

Rob
p.b.jones
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I have this experience due to entertaining on and off since 1974. No one has ever cited this as a reason for not booking, or given ANY indication that they were at all disturbed by the agreement or deposit. I've had bookers ask me, with the expectation that I would ask for this, as they are calling me as a professional ("What kind of deposit. . .?", or, "How can I make my deposit?".) I can't speak for the UK, having never performed there, but in my area, it works to both of our benefits.

Hi,
this part I would go along with no one would be put off by a deposit. but I think if you kkep the deposit and they think they have a good reason to cancel (and in their eyes most reasons are good) you are going to get bad will, I know this happens as I am a member of several organisations that use entertainers and several are on the never use agian list for this very reason
Phillip
Police Magician
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One of the resorts where I live has a contract that has a cancellation clause in it. It is required in case they have low attendance or interest in the event. Like it or not, if you sign with them, they are subject to cancel. They do not give deposits either. Their payment is one check about two weeks after the event. On a good note though, they do come through with many offerings for shows throughout the year, so one or two cancellations is not that much.

Glenn
Daniel Faith
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To call "church people" naive is quite naive in and of itself.
Your dealing with people's faith not their intelligence.
If you book with a church you should have the foresight to deal with these issues
up front.I have had churches cancel due to money but not once had an issue like this. But then I don't give the impression of having supernatural powers of my own.They know up front it's all trickery.It is esscential to explain at each and every event and on any advertising.
Daniel Faith
Chessmann
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You can find naive people in *any* group or category of person one wishes to choose.

With regard to this specific issue, I have said many times that if people are exposed to magic in *only one context* - bad, evil, silly, 'magicians are creeps', etc... - then that is the impression they will have until they see it or come to understand it in a different context.

And it is not just magic - it can be anything. In high school (about age 15), I thought most football players were dumb. That is what I had always heard. I didn't have any players who were friends, so I just figured it was true. Then I got to know some who were intelligent, very high achievers who made good grades. Very goal oriented. I learned a lesson then about grouping, or labelling, people that has stayed with me.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
JesterMan
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Quote:
On 2005-12-10 07:31, p.b.jones wrote:I know this happens as I am a member of several organisations that use entertainers and several are on the never use agian list for this very reason.
Well, those organizations would be welcome to call me only for a last minute booking. If they have several on their list due to kept deposits, that means that THEY are a bad risk for an advance booking. If I were to know that there is a/are group/s that cancel a lot, I'd put THEM on a list. Smile

Each entertainer must decide for themselves how to handle this situation. I'd handle a group like that the way I do an agency/entertainment broker; only call me shortly before the date. The likelihood of losing a better risk event is less likely, then.

Oh, by the way; I have never held a deposit. But, as I said, without one, they have nothing 'on the line', and you could show up, and find them at a local pub, having forgotten all about you. But, if they have $50+ (or a similar amount in each reader's currency), you can be pretty certain that they will at least call. Then you have the chance to be the nice guy. The alternative is being unceremoniously fired, with no chance to show your good will at all.

Because that church had no good reason (to me), I'd have them on 'my list', too. Knock my wooden head; so far I've been lucky with them.
JM Smile Smile

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BroDavid
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The overstated generalization made against Church folks is just that. And I don't like overstated generalizations because they usually are driven by an agenda. Maybe the agenda here was to vent. If so, then you should feel content as you have vented a lot. If the agenda was to point fingers and put down Church people, then it is a wrong agenda, and this is the wrong place to pursue it.

OK, Alan, you had this happen, a church cancel on you twice.

First I will say that it is the responsibility of the communicator to communicate. If your web site does not properly communicate with your target market, it your fault not theirs. Banacheck and others who do very professional Mentalism make a point of making it clear that what they do is not real. Maybe you should consider being more clear. Or find a different target client base.

Secondly I will say that it was wrong for the Church's to cancel a committed performance. It is one to give ones word and then go back on it!

But now I must also ask; Do you mean to say that this has never happened with clients other than the Church?????

I certainly doubt that! In fact, I have had many gigs cancelled, including civic benefits that I was doing for free, and had passed up paying gigs to be available for, and private parties, and Corporate events. Did they have reasons? They gave excuses, and I have no reason to doubt them.

It happens a lot in all venues. Does it only happen in the Church? NO.

It is not right to call out the Church and blame them for shortsightedness. Go back to the Communications point I stated above. If you think they cancelled after booking because of fear of your mental ism etc, then where do you think the fear was stirred? It was your web site.

Let's just call out everyone who every cancelled a show. They are all wrong. Now let's just be done with it.

BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
RevJohn
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Some thoughts after reading all of this, here are some of my informed thoughts:

1) Do Churches sometimes think the rules of business do not apply to them? yes.
2) Are some church members niave? Yes.
3) Are some of them Lutheran? Yes.
4) Do some Lutheran's cancel shows? Yes.
5) Do some Lutheran's think eating Lutefisk is an act of bravery and should be a show in itself? Yes
6) Should this type of show be cancel? yes, and probably illegal.

RevJohn
A Lutheran Anti-Lutefisk Anti-Canceling Anti-Naive Anti-hating Pastor
Its all about love, baby!
Kevin Ridgeway
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RevJohn...
That gets my vote for funniest post of the week!

Kevin
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Payne
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Quote:
On 2005-12-12 12:06, RevJohn wrote:

A Lutheran Anti-Lutefisk Anti-Canceling Anti-Naive Anti-hating Pastor
Its all about love, baby!



But if you are truly an Anti-Hating Pastor then you must, to avoid hypocrisy, love Lutefisk.
It's all about the reconstituted fish, baby!
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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