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Tim Hannig
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Chicago area
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I've been in magic all of my life.

I've been in the church all of my life.

I have been asked countless times by people in the church if "any of this stuff is real"...not what I do, but they want to know if Blaine is real...these days if Criss Angel is real, etc. So, maybe they see "psychic demonstration" and think of the psychic infomercials, etc.

(In the same way, much of the public is confused about real Christianity from the "televangelists" that they see on tv. There are lots of false teachers today, but hey, read 2nd Peter...it's no surprise.)

When I see the word "psychic", I think of neon lit houses with 24 hour readings. That stuff freaks church people out. So, if they see the word "psychic demonstrations", yes...that probably creeps them out a bit.

To you, it might mean you're doing mental epic...but to them, those words mean something else. Even if you try to explain that you won't do that during your show, just the fact that you advertise it on your site as a part of one of your acts is enough to make them uncomfortable.

I'm sure if the people who booked you saw you, they would have loved it.
PRAISE FOR TIM'S BOOK, PERFORM:

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"4 out of 4 stars!" Nick Lewin

"My favorite book for performers!" Bill Cook

"This will be a classic of magic!" Mark Pocan


performbettershows.com
TomBoleware
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Hattiesburg, Ms
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Alan, are you really that naive to think that there’s not a few people out there that “just don’t know” about you and your magic? Man, they think you’re a freak, and it’s not just the church folks. You’re a magician, a strange person, a weird-o to many folks. You claim to be able to do things that nobody else can do. You give them the creeps.

Congratulations on a job well done.



Don’t blame them, blame yourself.



I blame Max Maven. He still gives me the creeps. Smile

Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
Donald Dunphy
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Victoria, BC, Canada
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Quote:
On 2005-12-03 16:52, Alan Munro wrote:
There's a big difference in being told what to believe and having a healthy dialogue. I often discuss theology with people who have differing beliefs - it can be a really healthy thing. They can discuss what they believe and why they believe it.

I don't like dictators who TELL you what you should believe - I make that call. My beliefs evolve, maybe their beliefs could evolve for the better, too.


Alan -

From the sense I got from your earlier posts on this thread, you said that the contact person cancelled the booking, because someone else in the church was uncomfortable with something you said on your website.

But I don't recall reading that the contact person said to you that they now believed something different about you, too.

I don't think it is so much a matter of one person (or perhaps a group of people) in the church telling others what to believe (in this case), otherwise the minister might have stomped on their efforts to even contact you about the booking in the first place. You would have never even heard from them, if the leaders of the church, or the majority of the church members, believed this. This person would have known the church's beliefs, and acted on that understanding.

I think, in the case of your incident, you have a church family that is making a compromise to keep the peace in the family.

But everybody does that in their own family, too. For example, a busband wants a new stereo (or HDTV, or truck, or whatever), but the wife says that they can't afford it, and so he doesn't get it. He compromises to keep peace between them in the family, even if he still really wants the item.

Compromise is not always a bad thing. It's about living in peace and harmony with others. Hey, I put up with my wife leaving her clothes on the floor, even though that personal habit bothers me. And she puts up with tons of things about me (don't I know it), such as my perfectionistic attitude.

It's just like this in the church. Some people have compromised about not having the show, in order to keep peace in the church family.

Actually, although you might be upset with the selfishness of that one person (or group of people) for expressing their views and getting their way, you really have to admire the selflessness of the people in the church who didn't get their way, and had to cancel the booking, when they really wanted to have you.

BTW, I think Tim Hannig's post hit the nail square on the head. Great post, Tim!

- Donald
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
TomBoleware
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Like Donald said, I’m sure it was to keep “the peace in the family,”

Ross also makes a good point, that some magicians don’t come across as “family entertainment only.” They sell it as the real deal and this makes it hard for some people to separate the two. Most folks can accept the kidshow performers as being “only entertainment,” but once you get outside this type performer there’s lots of people that "just don’t know." Many people are afraid of the unknown.

When you consider the fact that the majority of folks (church or not) never see more than one or two magic shows in their entire lifetime, it becomes clear that magic can be confusing to many. While many may not believe it’s real, it will always be that mystery about it.

No, I don’t think it’s the going to church that makes people naive about magic.


Tom
"Entrepreneurs are willing to work 80 hours a week to avoid working 40 hours a week"--Lori Greiner

www.tomboleware.com
manal
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York ,PA.
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In response to the origional question posed by this thread:

Most are not , but yes some are.
Life is too important to take seriously.

james@jamesmanalli.com

www.jamesmanalli.com
Mr.Wizard
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Perhaps, but no more naive than those who believe in psychic anything.....

...there is the real irony in this.
Steve Haffner
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Kentucky
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Quote:
On 2005-12-01 20:37, juggleral wrote:
...just get a deposit when you are dealing with people who think they are above the law.
Al


I must have missed the part where they apparently thought they are above the law. I take no sides on this issue, but without a cancellation policy written in the contract, isn't cancelling within the law?

- Steve
Al Angello
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Eternal Order
Collegeville, Pa. USA
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Yes you have missed the point "get a deposit" is the point.
Al
Al Angello The Comic Juggler/Magician
http://www.juggleral.com
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"Footprints on your ceiling are almost gone"
Mr.Wizard
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Actually, the core point is when you try to have "something for everyone", someone is going to be offended.

The exact thing happened to me over a birthday party once, once.

Then I kept my different shows on different web sites.

Truth is, it is just good business not to confuse "uncle milton" the magic clown with "the all knowing great mysto".

Another point, is how many people see the site, get offended, and don't call at all? Web hosting is cheap, and you need different sites for your different characters.
Alan Munro
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Kentwood, Michigan, USA
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Quote:
On 2005-12-04 10:06, TomBoleware wrote:
Alan, are you really that naive to think that there’s not a few people out there that “just don’t know” about you and your magic? Man, they think you’re a freak, and it’s not just the church folks. You’re a magician, a strange person, a weird-o to many folks. You claim to be able to do things that nobody else can do. You give them the creeps.

Reread my posts.

When I was growing up, I never encountered this kind of thing. The church educated the people. I find that some other churches seem to be overly concerned about the drop in donations in the collection plate, if someone doesn't like what the clergyman said.
Police Magician
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Alan, I have to agree that getting a deposit to confirm the show is a must. I, as well as several other magician friends, have had sponsors call at the last minute to cancel a show for whatever reason. If I don't know the client, I ask for a deposit and the show is not confirmed until it is received. This keeps me from missing out on other shows and losing money. Some have sent them in while others, who wait until the last minute, have lost the show. They must have the deposit in by a certain date. The only ones who get a refund are those who have natural disasters or death in family. All others lose their deposit, which is agreed upon prior to the booking.

As Tom said, magicians do things other people cannot do. Many, who have no understanding of the principles used in magic, have formed a mindset about magic. Good or bad, you cannot change their thinking. I have had clients, who have cancelled in the past, call again. When this happens, I explain to them that I lost other shows and money due to their last minute cancellation. Because of this, I let them know that I need full payment up front by a certain date to confirm the show. If they pay and then cancel the show, they lose their money. Sometimes you have to be hard on people or they'll walk all over you.

I know that some may disagree with the above statement, but in my law enforcement career, I deal in holding people responsible for their actions or inactions. This carrys over into the magic world as well. Good luck and I hope this does not happen again.
Glenn
ThePartyMagician
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Well said Glenn!

It's all part and parcel of being a 'professional'

Mike
daffydoug
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Quote:
On 2005-12-01 12:40, Alan Munro wrote:
I had a performance scheduled at a local church. However, after passing up other offers to perform on that date, they cancel, citing the reference to "psychic demonstrations" on the main page of my site. Are people really so naive as to not know the difference between a theatrical performer and a "psychic"?

I don't understand why these people waste my time. I thought all of the "witchburning" was over!

You have hit on my hot button! I have been through this ignorance/fear from these folks many, many times in my life, until I finally gave up and said to heck with all church performances. I'm not wasting any more time with these nerkles.

The final straw came from the pastor of the church I was attending at the time. He just went off went I asked him if I could do a magic show in the church...he went on about voo doo and witch craft and all that...and no amount of convincing on my part could get through that myopic, hermetic, titanium steel mind of his. In the end, I justsaid "see 'ya." " I have better things to do with my time."

I haven't looked back, either. But truthfully, I have been hearing it from church folks for YEARS, telling me they saw the devil sitting on my shoulders, blah, blah, blah. One time, when I was a lot younger and naive, they convinced me that a bonfire with my tricks and books as the fuel would please God, so I gave in. (Burn the EVIL!!!) Boy was THAT stupid!

These folks I believe are motivated by fear and ignorance...afraid of being sent to hell for watching a card trick. I thought God said over and over in the Book to FEAR NOT!

Did I tell you about the time I was in a grocery store, and I had a pack of Bikes in my hands that I was about to pay for, when some folks from the church happened to walk by?


Posted: Dec 5, 2005 5:57pm
-------------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2005-12-01 17:41, Starrpower wrote:
It's not just "church folk." Professional educators (or what some might call the Yellow-Bellied Liberal P.C. Crowd) are nearly as bad. I was scheduled to present a seminar titled "Conjuring in the Classroom" at a state teachers' convention. They later cancelled citing, "Some teachers were uncomfortable with the term 'conjuring'."

HmMMMmm. But most of these same folks have no problem with Harry Potter..or Halloween. Strange..very strange indeed.
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
magicguy67
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mEL.fLORIDA
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The harry potter book was not sold in one country because they didn't want the kids to think it was real.
they thought it was impossible until they met me.

theres no reality in magic

did the magician come before the assistant or the other way around.
p.b.jones
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Hi Alan ,
I would look at it like this if there that finicky do you really want to work for them anyway? unless its a company or large oranisation or outdoor I don't take a deposit or have a cancellation clause, why ? because I could not be arsed chasing the money and I think to a small group it does you more bad than good (word of mouth)to keep there deposit if they cancel or try and get some sort of cancellation fee. hell if a proffesional performer cant handle losing the odd show fee (not directed at any one) but they need day job!
If you take the money I bet not one of the people at that church will ever book you. let it slide be nice and you might find you reap more than you sow
Phillip
God-glorified
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Quote:
On 2005-12-01 19:20, flourish dude wrote:
I would say if your not a Christian then you should not perform for churches or for a church program. If you are a Christian and a true student of the Bible then you know how to represent yourself.

I agree, but then again I didn't know churches would hire someone that wasnt a Christian, I just figured they could find gospel magicians easily.
Then again I am wrong often. I have been associated with a few different churches. One has a church with women that shreik and faint at the thought of someone owning playing cards, I also know a church that invited me to open the sermon with magic. To each his own (but its not ALL church folk Smile
Ephes. 2:8-9



For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
calamari
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I performed at a church last night, I don't belong to the church, I don't know any one there. But someone had heard that I am part of a magic presentation that is funny and clean and suitable for all ages, and that's what they wanted, someone to entertain them at an ( advent celebration) I am not even sure what that is.
"I came, I saw, SHE conquered." (The original Latin seems to have been garbled.)
daffydoug
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Well, in over twenty years, I have not been lucky enough to run into even ONE church group that was open to magic. Not one. Looks like I beat all the odds, eh?
The difficult must become easy, the easy beautiful and the beautiful magical.
mdspark
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I say these types of churches that get hysterical at the thought of 'magic' as entertainment are wearing their fear and ignorance on their sleeve. Just what "Satan" would like. I say to heck with them. Move on. don't look back. Such superstitious individuals, sadly, don't want to be enlightened. Their minds are locked closed. And, THANK GOD they do not represent the whole of Christianity.

Alan Munro, I get the impression from all your previous posts that you wont waist time with these types. Your orignal question is valid even if rhetorical. When a church contacts me, I tell them that I USUALLY do not perform for churches anymore due to last minute cancellations for superstitious reasons.. I find this weeds them out FAST and the more progressive, enlightened churches are not offended by this approach and never cancell for obsured reasons...Travel on my friend!

Mark

P.S. "Dear Lord, save me from your 'followers'."
rossmacrae
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"What do you think the devil's going to look like? ... No one's going to be taken in by a guy with a long red pointy tail. What does he sound like ... AARGH!? No! He will be attractive. He'll be nice and helpful. He will get a job where he can influence a great God-fearing nation. He'll never do an evil thing! He'll never deliberately hurt a living thing. He'll just bit by little bit lower our standards where they're important, just a tiny little bit. Just coax along, flash over substance, just a tiny little bit. ... And he'll get all the great women."
— Albert Brooks in the movie Broadcast News
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