This topic isn't necessarily about the final loads but more about gag loads throughout the whole routine. I saw a picture of Bob Sheets with the cups and balls and it looked like he had a fake hand as a load under one of the cups and I have heard that Bob Read has different gag loads throgh his routine and it got me trying to come up with a routine of mine. Right now I have 3 loads before the final loads, but I am concerened that by having these loads might take away from the impact of the final loads. I realize that as soon as the gag loads are used the trick moves from being a real magical effect to more of an entertainment piece but I would still like the trick to end on an impressive, magical, suprising note. There is a phase earlier in the trick that could incorperate a hat load like the Gazzo routine, but I am unsure if it will work since the misdirection at the piont is not too strong. I don't want to add the phase that Gazzo uses in his routine to load the hat since I want to keep the routine to as few phases as possible so that the audience doesn't get confused. As of now I wam thinking of using tennis balls as the final loads, unless I can think of, or hear of some other things to use with jokes or gags associated with them. And I will be using between 1 and 4 of them depending on which ending I choose to use. I thought about using a full shot glass but idealy I want to use this routine on the streets and will be doing the loads using a pouch, servante, and pockets so there is variety. But to sumerize and restate my question, does having gag loads within the routine take away from the final loads, and if so is that a bad thing?

I forgot to mention none of my gag loads are balls, one is a fake hand holding one of the balls I use in the routine, one is my watch, and one is a fake spider or something of the sort to scare the spectator.

I reserve the gag loads for my chopcup routine.
the cups and balls is complicated enough without gag loads.

But there are no hard and fast rules. I'm sure if bob sheets does this it goes over very well.

Interesting. I've seen Bob Sheets perform his cups and balls routine 100's of times and he's never used a hand as a load. My guess is that you just saw a publicity shot that was designed to attract attention with an unusual object.

I only use one load. The final one. I usually just have oranges appear. Then that's the end. But just recently I have been working on a routine that I take a mans bill, do a few tricks with it, I don't give it back. So throuout the routine I make a few magicle gags with that. Then I take a ladies ring and make it vanish. Show the audience a velvet bag filled with oranges. I put them on a table. Do a few more tricks. Then I do my cups and balls, the oranges appear under the cup, and the bag on the table that was filled with oranges is now filled with apples and the guys signed bill is in there with them. Then I get the lady to pick a orange. I cut it open. And ofcourse, there is the ring! Now, I do everything there exept the ring part. I don't have insurance, and I find cutting the orange too messy for inside a house.

I want to get something new, and not seen before. Absolutly original. What other loads could I use???

I seriously doubt that anyone could find anything that nobody has used as a final load before, unless it is something that has just been invented.

Regarding using the loads produced in the effect as the location of signed bills, cards, rings, borrowed children, photographs or anything else like that -- I find the separation of cause and effect to be disruptive of the magic.

Vanish a bill -- then find it in an orange. If you go into the cups and balls right after you vanish something, and you find it in the loads later, then you obfuscate the clean effect.

Think of how strong it is to have a spectator holding a lemon. Then you borrow the bill and have it identified. Then you destroy it. Then the spectator cuts the lemon open, and there's the bill. That is very strong pure magic.

I agree 100%. The first time I came across the combination was when I watched John Carney perform his Fruit Cup routine on television and then I read about it in his Carneycopia book. Although other magicians fell in love with the routine, I personally didn't care for it for the exact reason that you expressed. It's an example of dysergy--when the whole is less than the sum of its parts.

I think what I will do is get three tennis balls. Put a tiny slit in one of them so I can stick a bill in it easily. I will make the bill vanish. Do a few more tricks, do cups and balls. Have the tennis balls at the end, get the spectator to choose one (I will use the magicians force.) pretend to cut open the ball, and inside is the bill. It is much easier to just put the bill right in the ball after the vanish. I will get some balls and see how it works.

Mike Amar has combined the Bill in lemon and Cups and Ball tricks for a special a few years ago when the Johnson's Cups had just come out.
He did that routine very well and it was different from his regualar routine. The audience and many laymen I talked to after the special said it was cool.
Later,
Mobius

Yes, I know. So does Manuel Muerte and so do a lot of other guys. But that doesn't make it good theatre or good magic. The interplay gets in the way of the effect.

Here's why.

Let's suppose that you borrow a bill and vanish it. Now you have at least one person in the audience who is worried about that bill. You go into the cups and balls. The audience guy is worried about the bill. You do some cups and balls moves. The guy is worried about the bill. You get into the loads. You produce the loads. The guy is worried about the bill. You cut open the load and give him the bill.

You have diminished the effect of the cups and balls by making the guy think about thie bill. Chances are, other people are thinking about it as well.

Spend time working out an excellent cups and balls routine. And then work out an excellent bill in lemon routine.

Ammar did not do the cups and balls when he did the bill in the lemon on the Carson show with Arnold Schwarzenegger. It went over extremely well.

And there was no confusion about any of it.

I can see whay someone would be worried by a ring, but a bill? Unless its a 100 or more, I wouldnt be that worried. If I knew the magician enough, I know he would give it back. Anyway, what I do know, Is do the pen thru bill, mismade bill, and do the cups and balls (none of them are in that order.) And with the final loads, have 2 oranges, and in the middle a bill. Their bill ofcourse. What kind of bill vanishes are there that don't require a tt? I want to make the bill vanish, and appear under one of the cups as appose to having me just keep the bill, and then have it go under the cup. I would much rather vanish it. But with a thumb tip, that is very hard cuz I cant get the bill out. So what good bill vanishes are out there???

Try doing your cups and balls, finish with the final load, lets say its oranges. put the oranges in a bag of oranges as a clean up, then vanish the bill and find it inside an orange from the bag and let them choose. This way you are not harming the magic in your cups and balls, and you are coming back to a prop you have introduced and gone beyond. This may or may not answer the flow problem, let me know if you try this out how it goes.

In a previous post you said you only have one load. Now you have three. How many do you really have?

There are literally HUNDREDS of methods of vanishing a bill. I'm not going to tell you all of them, but I'll start you on the path.

1) roll it into a tube, so it is the same basic size as a cigarette. Then use any cigarette vanish as the method.
2) Under a handkerchief. This can be done with an ungimmicked handkerchief. Irv Weiner used this a lot.
3) Roll it into a ball and do a ball vanish with it.

Some people really worry about bills that you borrow from them. Even a five dollar bill can cause anxiety, depending on your audience. If the audience really knows you well, then they probably have seen you perform before. In that case, you are going to lose about half of the excitement you will get from doing a bill vanish.

I'm going to ask some questions that I am sure the others who have been responding have been wondering about, too. How long have you actually been doing magic? What resources do you have? Do you have the Tarbell books? Do you learn everything from DVD's? Are there any other magicians in your area?

I'm not asking these questions to put you down. Not at all. I'm trying to figure out where to steer you. You have some basically good concepts, but I think you need direction.