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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Steve Forte's bottom deal (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KidCrenshaw
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Sorry man, seemed like there was a posse a formin'.

I know what you're saying though. To a magician, the grip stands out like a sore thumb - so it seems it would look somewhat suspicious to laymen.
"Put your faith in Providence, but always cut the cards"
Sonicstabber
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Look into some random bottom dealing sources for some good ideas.

Expert Card Technique by Hugard and Braue
Phantoms of the Card Table by Britland/Gazzo
Lessons in Dishonesty ( basically the same as the Phantoms one, but has some nice points to add)
Revolutionary Card Technique by Marlo

That will keep you occupied for a while with different grips and bottoms as you won't have hands identical to Steve, you have to find the method that works best for you

Eddie
halcon
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Quote:
On 2006-01-04 10:03, Andrew Wimhurst wrote:
Sorry. Didn't mean to tick anyone off. Someone here noted that the Erdnase grip looks more like a move than the mechanic's grip. My point was: only to magicians.


Andrew hit dead on. People don't care about the grip. Have you ever noticed that almost everybody holds the deck differently... lay people that is. what about a black jack dealer, who holds it deep in the hand fongers around the front. hell, people don't even care about that.

Sonic, you came off a little strong. perhaps, you don't know who Andrew Wimhurst is. my advice research him... It may just make you humble.

I'll repeat what Andrew and Mr. Z said... ONLY! magicians care.

Son, you need to spend more time around people who play cards. Hell I don't know if you get it, in Australia but watch the poker shows on TV and you will notice different grips from different dealers.

Halcon
basedealer
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-01-04 08:31, KidCrenshaw wrote:
Also, SC_WIZARD, if you'd like to see an awesome push-out bottom deal, poick up the movie Shade.

In it's opening sequence, the director, Damian Nieman, does a bottom deal that is *** fine. The Erdnase instructional can be applied to this, with some slight finger placement modifications, and you'd have yourself one hell of a video to go with the text. It's also worth checking out for the Cafés own Jason England who does some work in the movie as well - awesome work.

Everytime I watch Nieman do the false shuffle on a glass table-top, a little bit of me dies.


Paul Wilson did the false shuffle on glass, actually.

A few years ago an "anonymous" person released a video tape/notes on the bottom deal. It's, um, *very* similar to the deal Damian does. *Ha-ha.* I no longer have the link but if you do a bit of searching around on the net and/or ask other card guys about it you shouldn't have a problem tracking it down.

It's a fine technique, just not my cup of tea.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-01-04 03:51, Andrew Wimhurst wrote:
Steve used the Erdnase grip on the TV show because it's the easiest grip to get up to speed and make 100% deceptive in a very short time, even if you haven't picked up a deck of cards in years (which he hadn't at that time, at least for old time pass the deck poker moves).

The deal on the tapes is much harder to master.

As an aside, I'll bet the only people who would have even thought to comment on Steve's grip on the TV show would be magicians. It looked great and nobody else would have cared.


It also has to do with hand size. Steve's got long fingers, and feels the Erdnase deal suits him best.

So, it comes down to personal preference. The mechanic's grip bottom deal violates my Buddhist beliefs, so I avoid it like the plague. That's just me, though...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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The Mechanic's Grip is normally used by casino dealers but not exactly: The forefinger sort of goes accross the front of the deck to partly protect the front edge view, for security reasons.

Strange that The Mechanic's Grip is thought to be OK when a "Mechanic" is a term for card cheat!

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
T. Joseph O'Malley
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As obsessive nerds we tend to obsess over stuff that nobody else gives a crap about. I admit to being guilty of this on occassion.

My uninformed unexperienced opinion is that the so called "mechanic's" grip is just as suspicious looking as the so called "Erdnase" grip, which is just as suspicious as the so called "sucker's" or "regular" or "full" grip. I have seen players and magicians who looked verrrrryyy suspicious while holding a deck in full grip.

If you fancy yourself a cheat and are playing with people who know what the grips are and what their for, you'd be putting yourself at risk by using any sort of false dealing and such. I'm not saying that no one does this, but the point is they'll be watching you if they know what to look for.

Before someone chimes in about Erdnase and uniformity of action, you could switch between these grips multiple times during a game and the only people who would know would be the ones you warned in advance or perhaps the ones who maybe read their parent's copy of Scarne on Cards. When performing magic, the last thing your audience should care about is how you hold the cards - they shouldn't have much of a reason to suspect your grip.

The stuff on the Forte tapes is really nicely executed, isn't it. I wish that I could see the Tv special you fellows are refering to.

I have big hands. The Erdnase grip feels quite nice with big mitts.
tjo'
tommy
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The important question is: Can you deal bottoms without arousing suspicion? There is only way to find out and that is to try it. If you find that you can everything else is academic. There no such animal as the most deceptive bottom deal! It either deceives or not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
halcon
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The biggest betrayl to any falsedeal is rythm. you can have a great bottom but your rythm can betray you. no one may have caught you, but trust me it sent up red flags and now the players are more alert. I have also seen beautiful hops but they weren't congruent with that persons body language.

Halcon
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The bottom deal on the GPS tapes was done from a grip that I would call a "Modified Master Grip." Instead of trying to "cap" the entire front-right corner of the deck held in the dealing hand, the index finger simply secures a position of slight force on the lower half of the front-right corner of the deck. If I were to actually use the bottom deal under fire, which is a hefty if, I would use this grip. I find that this obviates the risk of catching a hanger, and covers the buckling action of the second finger which should be attempted two or three cards before the bottom is pulled from the deck. There are, I find many other advantages of using this grip. My Master Grip is different from Steve's in that I don't hold together the second, third and fourth fingers of the deck hand. The fingers of my deck hand tend to be more spread apart from one another, whereas Steve seems to use these three fingers in unison to loosen the bottom card. Again, this also has advantages and I make no assertion as to the superiority of either technique. As an aside, I attempt not to challenge Mr. Z on the topic or his comments on it, nor do I mean to challenge any other members. Any cardman should be ready to concede that the Master and Mechanics' Grip resemble each other very much in apperance.

The important thing to remember is that it is far more paramount to hold the deck in a way that feels and looks good in your hands. If this means that your Master Grip doesn't look exactly like another mechanic's then, so be it. Are you more concerned with getting the money, or with holding the deck "properly?" By no means do I imply that there is no importance in basic techinque and the mechanics behind a certain move, I am just saying that those are not the only things to consider when preparing a move for use at the card table.

I don't think that magicians are the only card handlers that are super concerned with the minutae involved in sleight of hand manipulation with cards. Good mechanics are also quite aware of the impact that subtle differences in handling can have on the outcome of the moves. I think that most would agree, however, that magicians and card mechanics are a different breed and analyze their techniques with a different agenda.

Okay, my soapbox just collapsed into a pile of splinters from beneath me. I will camly escort myself to the gallows so that I can be strung-up for answering a question. See you there, and may you always catch suited aces.

Card Cheat
Sonicstabber
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Halcon,

I am humble, I just don't see why I would have to kiss the behind of someone unless it is in order to do so.

I do know who Andrew is, I have heard of his smooth centre deal, his notes and material and also his constant reference from Ortiz in his recent books and DVDS ( namely, Scams and Fantasies).

I respect him greatly, as he is one of the few Australian magicians/technicians in history other than Arthur Buckley and Barry Govan ( names worth mentioning)

Yes, we do get WPT down here on cable channels, and to enlighten you briefly, I have met more than a few dealers, from Casino's in Brisbane, Sydney and even some from overseas. I know how people hold cards differently, suited to their hand styles, and I was merely offering a range of materials to go into to find some orthodox ( and not so orthodox) methods, theories etc. that would speed up the process by allowing them to fiddle with different deals to find which suits them and their hand type.

As a magician, you can even get to see laymen and how they would deal cards, which can give you some ideas.

I'm not trying to talk myself up, but do not talk me down as it is demeaning. I was trying to help a curious fellow who has also taken a liking to an inspiration like Forte.

Cheers, no hard feelings

Eddie
halcon
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Quote:
On 2006-01-04 21:54, Sonicstabber wrote:
I am humble, I just don't see why I would have to kiss the behind of someone unless it is in order to do so.


I don't feel you should have to kiss anyone's ass either. Nor, do I expect you too. I respect a person that has the gall to stand up for themselves, regardless of who they're speaking to.

It just came off very curt.

Quote:
I'm not trying to talk myself up, but do not talk me down as it is demeaning. I was trying to help a curious fellow who has also taken a liking to an inspiration like Forte.


Now that you explained yourself, I apologize

Halcon
rawdawg
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Concerning styles of dealing in Poker and 21 games....

I've dealt them with the deck tabled using a flourishy snap. I've dealt them to the felt then moved them to the seat or center. I've dealt them stud style one after another to the board. I've dealt them one handed face down to the seat, face up to the board. I've used LePaul's style of seconds for dealing tops. I've dealt flops into my hand and raise them above my head and slammed them onto the felt, in that Latin style of Baccarat playing. I've purposely switched grips from deal to deal and even card to card. I've held the deck longetudinally, laterally, fanned, deep grip, etc... I've dealt cards in nearly every fashion available and sometimes all in the same session.

As far as I'm concerned, it really doesn't matter much. As long as you don't act like you're doing anything shady and not sweating it out, nobody seem to really care. They are more interested in the game itself. The dealing is a necessary procedure to facilitate the game. That someone is willing to, number one, deal, two, make it interesting and three, keep the hands coming in an efficient manner is fantastic.

I believe I just killed the King's English with the previous sentence.

Anyways, I thought that Forte just used a mechanic's grip and did the take in the Classic style albiet with a tremendous amount of skill and experience.
One time, when I was young, I botched a sleight so bad, Vernon, Marlo & Miller rolled over in their graves. But I didn't see Elmsley, probably because he was behind the others.
Sonicstabber
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Halcon, No worries. We're all familiar to the pasteboards, so there shouldn't be much tension or bad blood between people, as we all share an interest which is not so common as it seems.

It's all good.

for bottom deals, the best lesson to learn is to get the idea of the strike bottom deal, as taught in ECT or Marlo's book. The finger positioning is all you need, not for the grip but for where the card is to be taken from. Take the theory and then work it all out yourself. Or you could go through trial and error of published methods and certain grips or theories. ( As I supported before)

Something that should be looked into is Marlo's Cigar bottom, an extremely good point not so much on the deal itself but on the take.

Eddie
tommy
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You can try this and that bottom deal, and they all take some getting used to and a lot of practice, but at the end of day I would advise you go for the one that feels the most cosy in your hand. You have to feel relaxed with it. If not you can cut the atmosphere with a knife. I don’t think you can hide what you don’t feel comfortable with. You have to be able do it with the greatest of ease.


Contrary to convention: I start with the stock on top and deal bottoms to everyone and deal the tops as and where I want them to land. Put that in your pipes and smoke it. Smile

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Alewishus
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And you probably use the pass to control one card! Smile
I think I'll sit down with the mirror tonight and watch a movie and practice my bottoms, and if the wife is up to it, maybe latter she'll show me her bottom...deal.
A.
Sack subs, ok Ross?
We miss you asper.
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