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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts 
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Rutabaga, with all due respect: in one breath, you claim that you have no knowledge of how hypnosis works, yet in your last post, you claim that hypnosis "which reaches out beyond the physical and binds the free will of the one hypnotized, results in the hindering of the human spiritual development, the consequences of which must return to impact both hypnotist and hypnotee!"
I have to ask you, in all fairness to yourself and to this forum, how you can possibly support that argument when you have clearly admitted that you have no idea as to how hypnosis works? You are claiming knowledge about something that you have admitted that you have no knowledge about. Forgive me, but you cannot have it both ways, so please, for the sake of MY sanity, if nothing else, explain how you resolve that mutually exclusive set of concepts in your own mind. Here is what you have stated: Premise: I know nothing about hypnosis or how it works. Second Premise: I know that hypnosis works by: (it) reaches out beyond the physical and binds the free will of the one hypnotized, results in the hindering of the human spiritual development, the consequences of which must return to impact both hypnotist and hypnotee! These are mutually exclusive concepts. You cannot claim to know nothing about how something works and then claim to know how it works - but this is exactly what you have just done in your last post. Lastly, all hypnosis is SELF hypnosis. The hypnotist is NOT a CONTROLLER, but a guide. There is no "binding of the will or spirit." That, my friend is urban myth and legend and refuted by literally every medical and psychological experiment and text available today. The hypnotee has the ability and, indeed is fully able to terminate the session AT ANY POINT he or she CHOOSES. Obviously, you missed that in our earlier discussions, the references that have been cited and in Psychology 101, if you have taken it yet. Hypnosis is a PURELY COMMUNICATIVE PROCESS. It does not involve "spiritual energies," or "odic influences," or "chi, prana, mana, ki," or any of the other mystical nonsense that Hollywood and the New Age movements would have the public believe. It is based solely on to people COMMUNICATING with each other and engaging the IMAGINATION and the EMOTIONS to achieve a MUTUALLY AGREED-UPON GOAL. Now, please, unless you can resolve this dichotomy of how you can know nothing about how hypnosis works and yet claim to know how hypnosis works, do some substantive research on the topic - read some of the actual university level works done on the topic so you will have a better understanding of the mechanics of hypnosis. Those works will explin the process, affect and effect of hypnosis far better than any of us could in a short forum post in here. Respectfully, Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1283 Posts
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Mr. Darrow,
What I have said is "I am ignorant as to the actual workings of hypnosis". This is not the same as being unable to survey the <i>consequences</i> of hypnosis. I might be ignorant as to the actual workings of gravity, but I understand the consequences of jumping off a cliff--- Please note I also said "science itself is ignorant as to the actual workings <b>[and therefore consequences]</b> of hypnosis. <b>The reason science is ignorant to the consequences of hypnosis is because, as I have said repeatedly, the true effects of hypnotism extend beyond the material, beyond scientific understanding.</b> The limits of intellectual understanding are firmly set at the boundary of gross matter. Only the human spirit is capable of absorbing more. If you are one of those who would deny the existence of the spiritual, then I have no more to offer you. Those with an more open outlook, and who are able and willing to discuss these things objectively, I would encourage to PM me. Mr. Darrow, I thank you for your input, and for your civil manner. I now consider this topic closed. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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Closed? you spout ignorance and myth and we who use this to feed our families are supposed to consider it closed?
sorry bud but let me help you. You may understand the concequences of jumping off a cliff,BUT you are speaking of the gravity equivilant of "which falls faster,a pebble or a boulder, THIS part of gravity you are ignorant and can NOT apply your cliff theory. there are many many different nuances to this discussion and you stick to ONE part and try to apply it to others. NOW topic closed
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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magickdabid--uk Loyal user 245 Posts
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Shame its closed, just getting interesting, kinda reminded my of the Richard Dawkins program I watched the other night, He had to deal with Blinkered religous dogma too!.
Lee, Danny, found your posts most enlightning......... Rutabaga, mate, were all here in the business of entertaining and fooling people, but you're fooling yourself, badly......very badly, take a goooood long look at your magical history, these "spiritual things" that have taken control of "your free will" have been used by magicians in one guise or another since the dawn of time, but pleeeese don't take my word for it, do the home work yourself and claim the inheritance we mystics have been left!. Dave |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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The problem is he seems done with homework. this is what they mean when they say a "little" bit of knowlege is a dangerous thing.
he has is opinions and regardless of anything he is determined to stick to them.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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I think rutabaga has less of an idea about what free will is then he does about hypnosis.
The subduing of free will is the basis of all moral regimes and one that you may all be familiar with in your own country. Hypnosis could be thought of as negation of free will inhibitors for the purpose of clear communication. (could). With free will this planet would be a nasty and mercenary world.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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magickdabid--uk Loyal user 245 Posts
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The subduing of free will is the basis of all moral regimes and one that you may all be familiar with in your own country.
New Labour? Free Will......just another illusion to keep us sweet!. Dave |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-01-10 10:06, rutabaga wrote: Actually, I am not sure that you do. Firstly, you have not described any of these "consequences" that you have been going on about. Please describe them. At that point, the matter MIGHT come to some form of closure. Until that point, the matter is far from over. Quote:
Please note I also said "science itself is ignorant as to the actual workings <b>[and therefore consequences]</b> of hypnosis. <b> Sorry, but once again, you contradict yourself. You state that the consequences are observable, yet you state that "science," whomever that might be, is in ignorance of them. That would imply that "science" has overlooked something that is patently obvious. I sincerely doubt that "science" would make such an obvious omission. If it is observable, it has been observed. Many men and women in science are people of Faith. Nice try, but your spin on that angle fails. Quote:
The reason science is ignorant to the consequences of hypnosis is because, as I have said repeatedly, the true effects of hypnotism extend beyond the material, beyond scientific understanding.</b> The limits of intellectual understanding are firmly set at the boundary of gross matter. Only the human spirit is capable of absorbing more. If you are one of those who would deny the existence of the spiritual, then I have no more to offer you. Those with an more open outlook, and who are able and willing to discuss these things objectively, I would encourage to PM me. You presume quite a bit about me. And an intellectual understanding of matters spiritual being impossible is one of them. See St. Augustine, for openers, Buddha for another and Martin Luther for another. If you want to go another few rounds on that, I'd be happy to oblige. So far, you have made some serious inferences, but no actual claims as to the possible damage hypnosis can do. You infer that it "strangles" spiritual growth in some fashion, yet you fail to tell us how, especially as you refuse to describe how hypnosis acts on that level and especially as you readily admit that you have NO understanding as to how hypnosis works. You cannot have it both ways, as I stated, before. This is an open discussion and you have brought up ome very interesting ideas. To walk away from them just when they are getting to the points of the argument seems to be saying that either A: you cannot really defend your position and are running away from the discussion or B: you have no intent of doing any research as you have no intention of even attempting to learn something, but are simply trying to foist your beliefs off on the rest of the group for your own reasons, whatever they may be or C: you are simply looking to put forth a religious recruiting program of your own, which you know is against Café' policy and do not want to run afoul of the rules on that. So, in the spirit of openness, put forth your argument and let's discuss it like civilized people, instead. You might learn something. So might we. Quote:
Mr. Darrow, I thank you for your input, and for your civil manner. I now consider this topic closed. I'm sorry that you feel this way and hope that you will bring your position and ideas back to the group at large for more discussion. It was just getting interesting. Please understand that no one was ganging up on you, but we were all trying to help you to understand that you appear to be laboring under a set of long-held myths that have been floating about the religious and spiritual communities for decades and which have NO support in Scripture or other holy texts at all, nor do they have any support in any of the clinical literature, whatsoever. And thank you for your kind words as well. Respectfully, Lee Darrow, C.H. cc to rutabaga, by PM
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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Ruti'
That cliff... 1 meter or 1000 meter drop? Onto land or into water? With or without deceleration aid? On this planet or another? In this reality or another? You claim to know the consequence of jumping from a cliff yet you fail to define the conditions of the jump. This seems to be the logic you follow in your arguments. Sorry to seem cold but that's how you make me feel.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts
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Partizan, I cc'd him on my response and, so far, no reply. My feeling is that he was looking for an excuse to put forward a religious agenda and, when we didn't rise to the bait in here in the way he expected, but, instead, pointed out the fallacies in his logic (or lack thereof), he bolted.
However, time will tell. With luck, he will come back as this was starting to get very intersting! Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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What he said
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Daniel Santos Special user 562 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-01-05 02:18, Lee Darrow wrote: ...and now you know what happens when you mess with a philosophe ;-). |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1283 Posts
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<quote>… in the spirit of openness, put forth your argument and let's discuss it like civilized people, instead. You might learn something. So might we</quote>
Mr. Darrow, You have posted some sincere and fair questions. <quote>… you have not described any of these "consequences" that you have been going on about. Please describe them. At that point, the matter MIGHT come to some form of closure. Until that point, the matter is far from over</quote> I disagree. I have said plainly, “… hypnotism, which reaches out beyond the physical and <i>binds the free will of the one hypnotized, results in the hindering of the human spiritual development.</i>†<quote>You state that the consequences are observable, yet you state that "science," whomever that might be, is in ignorance of them. That would imply that "science" has overlooked something that is patently obvious. I sincerely doubt that "science" would make such an obvious omission. If it is observable, it has been observed. Many men and women in science are people of Faith</quote> The consequences are indeed observable <i>spiritually</i>. I have already defined “science†as “that which is empirically measurableâ€, and the limits of intellectual understanding as “firmly set at the boundary of gross matterâ€. Science does not therefore possess the ability to observe the consequences in question. Whether one has “faith†or not does not change this in any way. <b>That which is beyond gross matter cannot be measured by gross matter</b> <quote>You presume quite a bit about me. And an intellectual understanding of matters spiritual being impossible is one of them. See St. Augustine, for openers, Buddha for another and Martin Luther for another. If you want to go another few rounds on that, I'd be happy to oblige</quote> Perhaps I should be more clear. An intellectual <i>experiencing</i> of matters spiritual is impossible. An intellectual understanding of the <i>interpretation</i> of this experiencing certainly is possible. These are subtle but important distinctions. <quote>…you have made some serious inferences, but no actual claims as to the possible damage hypnosis can do. You infer that it "strangles" spiritual growth in some fashion, yet you fail to tell us how, especially as you refuse to describe how hypnosis acts on that level and especially as you readily admit that you have NO understanding as to how hypnosis works</quote> I have clearly said that hypnosis binds the free will of man, which consequently hinders spiritual progress. This is serious damage. I <i>have</i> said that "I am ignorant as to the actual workings of hypnosis". This means that I cannot survey the complete process – from its beginnings in the material to its effects in the ethereal. I have also said that <i>science itself</i> has limited understanding of how hypnosis works, and this is so because of the material limits of scientific understanding. Hypnosis transcends the material, and works on an <i>ethereal</i> level. Unless a practitioner is fully familiar with the sphere to which all that he uses belongs, he cannot be called qualified. And he who knows the ethereal sphere <i>would never make use of hypnotism</i> as long as he desires what is best for his fellow men. To go into more actual details on this would require a thorough understanding of the connections and principles of life, nature, creation – call it what you will – that lie both within and beyond the world of matter. An in-depth discussion of that nature is very much beyond the scope of this forum. <quote>… either A: you cannot really defend your position and are running away from the discussion or B: you have no intent of doing any research as you have no intention of even attempting to learn something, but are simply trying to foist your beliefs off on the rest of the group for your own reasons, whatever they may be or C: you are simply looking to put forth a religious recruiting program of your own, which you know is against Café' policy and do not want to run afoul of the rules on that</quote> A: Without going into very much more detail, not appropriate for this forum, as stated above, I have given as much as I am able to this discussion. There was no intention of “running awayâ€. B: Correct. What science knows of hypnotism is piecemeal, and I have no interest in wallowing in a quagmire of intellectual gropings. C: Neither am I seeking converts, adherents or religious recruits. As I have clearly said, I offer this simply for those who might otherwise become involved in matters beyond their understanding, and who might yet be spared the consequences. <quote>Please understand that no one was ganging up on you, but we were all trying to help you to understand that you appear to be laboring under a set of long-held myths that have been floating about the religious and spiritual communities for decades and which have NO support in Scripture or other holy texts at all, nor do they have any support in any of the clinical literature, whatsoever.</quote> I am well aware that I am “in the lion’s denâ€, and many here have much invested in hypnotism. However, my position is <i>not</i> informed by myths, nor does it draw from scripture or so-called holy books, but is firmly based on simple and natural laws which are as real as any science uses today. Mr. Darrow, you are obviously an educated and respected man of much talent, and your dedication to your field is admirable. I don’t for a minute doubt your goodwill and sincerity. I have replied to your posts as openly as possible within the confines of the forum, and hope I have clarified to some extent your questions. |
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Partizan Inner circle London UK 1682 Posts
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It would seem that you know less about the spirit then you do about free will and hypnosis.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Next you will bring the soul into the argument with even less aptitude then your previous attempts. It seems too me that your 'spirit' has wondered down some blind alley and is trying to convince itself and us that it is not lost! Perhaps with some hypnotherapy you may be guided to a font of understanding that has so far illuded you. Speaking as a free and unencumbered spirit I find your views very narrow and clouded. Perhaps you should let go of some of that baggage and join the rest of us. Oh, and please learn to use the quote format correctly. Quote: Oh, and please learn to use the quote format correctly.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21245 Posts
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You do seem to REFUSE to be educated mr. rutabega
you make wide sweeping arguements, you make accusations and things like strangling spirituality when in reality hypnosis is not about control. as stated ALL HYPNOSIS IS SELF HYPNOSIS. somewhat like meditation. can you then argue that meditation "strangles" the spiritual growth>? No you can not. The other thing to keep in mind that hypnosis is more about taking control of your own mind and turning that mind lose! it is NOT about hindering people or strangling anything. you indeed have some age old ideas which caused people to be burned to death in Salem not too long ago. You adhere to old myths legends and fear of what you don't understand and instead of finding out what it is you don't know you insist on seemingly less of an understanding than when you started. Don't read what we write,there is PLENTY of scientific research on the subject that is independent. Not all supports our side mind you but read it with an open mind and you will be shocked with what you end up with. I know you BELIEVE you are right. BUT as I said you can tell me you don't "believe" in Newtonian Physics, but guess what you are still subject to its laws now arren't you?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-01-13 00:13, rutabaga wrote: I disagree. You have made a baldfaced statement and are requriring the rest of us to accept it as fact, yet you do not describe what thie "binding of the spirit and hindering of the growth" entails, nor what the results are. Sorry, but that does not wash. Quote:
<quote>You state that the consequences are observable, yet you state that "science," whomever that might be, is in ignorance of them. That would imply that "science" has overlooked something that is patently obvious. I sincerely doubt that "science" would make such an obvious omission. If it is observable, it has been observed. Many men and women in science are people of Faith</quote> Circular argument. You are stating that even those people of Faith, because they are also believers in science, cannot see that which is plainly visible to them through their Faith. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If that were true, there would be a faction in the scientific community that would be striving to prove this stance of youre, just as there is one supporting "intelligent design." Spin fails. Quote:
<quote>You presume quite a bit about me. And an intellectual understanding of matters spiritual being impossible is one of them. See St. Augustine, for openers, Buddha for another and Martin Luther for another. If you want to go another few rounds on that, I'd be happy to oblige</quote> Thank you for proving my point above. Quote:
<quote>…you have made some serious inferences, but no actual claims as to the possible damage hypnosis can do. You infer that it "strangles" spiritual growth in some fashion, yet you fail to tell us how, especially as you refuse to describe how hypnosis acts on that level and especially as you readily admit that you have NO understanding as to how hypnosis works</quote> Forgive me, but that is a cop out. You state that someone who does not know everything about how something works is not truly qualified. Well, when one gets right down to fundamental levels of matter, gravity and even certain functions of thermodynamics, there is LOTS that NO ONE understands. Therefore, by your logic, no one is qualified in anything. You are evading the point of the issue. What specific harm comes to an individual from the experience of hypnosis? I can quantify a large number of positive results that are easily replicable and verifiable in the entire population. Can you say the same - no - or you would have done so, as you admitted that an intellectual understanding of matters spiritual IS possible. Your own points have pricked your argument's balloon and popped it, I'm afraid. Quote:
<quote>… either A: you cannot really defend your position and are running away from the discussion or B: you have no intent of doing any research as you have no intention of even attempting to learn something, but are simply trying to foist your beliefs off on the rest of the group for your own reasons, whatever they may be or C: you are simply looking to put forth a religious recruiting program of your own, which you know is against Café' policy and do not want to run afoul of the rules on that</quote> Consequences which you have yet to even define and still refuse to. Forgive me, but that does seem like a pretty reasonable definition of evasion. Quote:
<quote>Please understand that no one was ganging up on you, but we were all trying to help you to understand that you appear to be laboring under a set of long-held myths that have been floating about the religious and spiritual communities for decades and which have NO support in Scripture or other holy texts at all, nor do they have any support in any of the clinical literature, whatsoever.</quote> How can you make the assertion that you "are not laboring under any myths" when you also have admitted that you have NO understanding of the workings of hypnosis at all?! As I stated, clearly, you cannot have it both ways - they are mutually incompatible views. Quote:
Mr. Darrow, you are obviously an educated and respected man of much talent, and your dedication to your field is admirable. I don’t for a minute doubt your goodwill and sincerity. I have replied to your posts as openly as possible within the confines of the forum, and hope I have clarified to some extent your questions. Sorry, but you have not. Contrariwise, you have really shown that you still hold to a contradictory set of views: "I have no idea of how hypnosis works and no understanding of its mechanics" and "I know that it binds and ties the spiritual growth of a person" which I contend one cannot KNOW for a fact without knowing the mechanics of - appearances CAN be deceiving after all! Until such time as you can resolve that contradiction, this matter is an exchange which will bear little fruit, I fear. Respectfully, Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1283 Posts
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Mr. Darrow,
Quote:
You have made a baldfaced statement and are requriring the rest of us to accept it as fact, yet you do not describe what thie "binding of the spirit and hindering of the growth" entails, nor what the results are. Sorry, but that does not wash. I require no one to accept anything blindly! I ask only for an unbiased and LOGICAL consideration of what I am offering. Surely you do not expect me to provide scientific facts proving the existence of that which is beyond science? Quote:
You are stating that even those people of Faith, because they are also believers in science, cannot see that which is plainly visible to them through their Faith. Sorry, but you cannot have it both ways. If that were true, there would be a faction in the scientific community that would be striving to prove this stance of youre, just as there is one supporting "intelligent design." Faith alone does not automatically grant spiritual understanding. And those WITH spiritual understanding would NEVER attempt to prove spiritual matters scientifically, as these are two different species! Quote:
You state that someone who does not know everything about how something works is not truly qualified. Well, when one gets right down to fundamental levels of matter, gravity and even certain functions of thermodynamics, there is LOTS that NO ONE understands. Therefore, by your logic, no one is qualified in anything. Interaction and understanding of the material world is natural for human beings within it who have developed the ability to do so. Matter, gravity and yes, even certain functions of thermodynamics, are a part of the material world. Interaction and understanding of the spiritual world is natural for human beings who are within it and have developed the ability to do so. Quote: I have answered repeatedly: the binding of the free will and subsequent hindering of spiritual maturity!
What specific harm comes to an individual from the experience of hypnosis? Quote:
I can quantify a large number of positive results that are easily replicable and verifiable in the entire population. Can you say the same - no - or you would have done so, as you admitted that an intellectual understanding of matters spiritual IS possible. Your own points have pricked your argument's balloon and popped it, I'm afraid. Again I must clarify: A direct intellectual understanding of matters spiritual is IMPOSSIBLE. However, an intellectual understanding of the interpretation of spiritual experiencing certainly is possible for those who have developed the ability. Quote:
Consequences which you have yet to even define and still refuse to. Forgive me, but that does seem like a pretty reasonable definition of evasion. I have already stated the consequences, repeatedly - the hindering of spiritual maturity. Quote:
How can you make the assertion that you "are not laboring under any myths" when you also have admitted that you have NO understanding of the workings of hypnosis at all?! As I stated, clearly, you cannot have it both ways - they are mutually incompatible views. To labor under any myths, I would be required to be aware of the myths, which I assure you I am not. I am informed by spiritual realities beyond the scope of this forum. Those interested may PM me, others may go their own way. [/quote] Quote:
...you have really shown that you still hold to a contradictory set of views: "I have no idea of how hypnosis works and no understanding of its mechanics" and "I know that it binds and ties the spiritual growth of a person" which I contend one cannot KNOW for a fact without knowing the mechanics of - appearances CAN be deceiving after all! Mr. Darrow, you are mired in an intellectual swamp. "Appearances CAN be deceiving" applies to the intellect only. In the spiritual, all deception is impossible. Quote:
...this matter is an exchange which will bear little fruit, I fear. Here I must agree. This topic deals with the spiritual realities of hypnostism. As I said previously, for those who would deny the existence of the spiritual, then I have no more to offer. Those with an more open outlook, and who are able and willing to discuss these things objectively, I would encourage to PM me. |
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magickdabid--uk Loyal user 245 Posts
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I'm confused......"existence of the spiritual?" Spiritual what?
Dave |
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rutabaga Inner circle Toronto, Canada 1283 Posts
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Dave,
I'm referencing the spiritual as the essence of man, and spiritual maturity as the purpose of life. My expanations rest on the existence of spiritual life beyond physical matter. |
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Posted: Jan 10, 2006 09:52 am 
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