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Jim Poor
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First of all, I know very little about Hypnosis but am curious to learn someday. I can't afford classes as yet, so it will have to wait. Now, on to my question...

I was talking with a friend who was once a successful stage hypnotist. Success being that he entertained fellow soldiers in combat by doing shows. Some of the things he did were really interesting.

We were talking about the whole free will thing, and he mentioned that he believes a person will do anything, given the right suggestion and circumstances. Example:

A person who would never take of their clothes in front of strangers. Suggest to them that they are really at home, getting ready for a shower, and they will take off their clothes.

A person who would never flip someone the bird. Convince them they are in a country, or even on a planet where that is the proper and expected greeting, and they will do it.

Again, these are not MY theories, but still very interesting. What do you think?

Tks
Jim
dan parker
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He is absolutly right.

But the thing in your discription is much easier. suggest her you are her boyfriend or a famous star, look a the things that happenend right then... taking of the clothes is then only the start..

and there a many things to fool the "free will"

But: Think of the ethics, everyone is a star, do not these things, they come back in a way youve never expected..
Scotty Mac
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Jim,

There is a Sleepwalkers (http://www.sleepwalkers.us/) chapter in the DC area that you might be interested in. Sleepwalkers is a free resource for people interested in learning more about hypnosis and practicing it with others who share an interest in hypnosis. It might be a good resource while you are saving up for training and you might be able to get some of your questions answered in more depth from some of its members.

Scott
Jim Poor
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Thanks for the tip on sleepwalkers.

And just to be clear, I don't have any plans to do anything even remotely like my example. I was just curious about the free will thing.

Thanks
jim
Lee Darrow
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Gentlemen, this is a straw man argument. I suggest that you take a look at The Experience of Hypnosis by Hilgard and Hilgard, which tested this very hypothesis and wherein it failed, significantly, every time - and was replicated at Harvard, Yale and University of Chicago.

Here's why - hypnotic hallucination is NOT perfect, no matter the depth, as Erickson, Hilgard, Fromm, Schorr and Weitzenhoffer (as well as others) demonstrated, repeatedly. Example: When a deeply hypnotized subject was placed in trance and told that they could not see a chair in a room and the chair was placed in a position where the subject would trip over it when they were asked to cross the room, the subject INVARIABLY moved to avoid the chair. When questioned about their actions, the reply wasalways to the effect of: "I don't know, it just seemed the right thing to do," and they denied, vehemently in some cases, seeing the chair, at all.

This gave rise to the concept that has become called "The Hidden Observer." This is a part of the consciousness that retains knowledge of the true surroundings and protects the volunteer from untoward or dangerous suggestions. It is also a good explanation for why someone, when given a gun would shoot, because they were aware on a subliminal level, that the weapon was either not real, unloaded or otherwise safe. The same applied to the "acid toss" experiment with the "invisible glass."

Just some notes for you.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Jim Poor
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Ah, I've been hoping for you to chime in. Thanks for the tip on where to look, and more importantly where to send my friend. And no, it's not me, He's much older than I and I wasn't around (born) when he was on stage.

I've always been interested in the workings of the mind, and this is just another area of interest for me.

Thanks again,
Jim
Dannydoyle
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Can I say I agree with Lee and just have everyone "assume" I know as much?

Man Lee way to go buddy!

Hey I DO know him though does that at least count?

Oh and to come up with those perfect examples and push them off as "notes"? come on dude take some credit here, that was perfect!

Bravo my friend.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Jim Poor
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I have to agree. I think I may be at risk of becoming a Lee Darrow groupie Smile
dan parker
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I have here a completely lack of understanding, maybe my english is that bad or I'm completely foolish, both possible.

What do you want to say, that my posted example is not real or not practible?

Please do me a pleasure and say it in clear and non specific words.

Let us take the example with the woman taking of her clothes in front of a big crowd, possible or not?

I say it is possible, I proof this, with everyone I'm able to get in trance level 15 / 16 davis husband

Please don't take examples from former capacities, most hypnosis literature is copied from one author to the other, with all the mistakes they made,but that's another theme.


Please enlighten me.


Posted: Jan 9, 2006 1:23pm
-------------------------------------------
By the way the example with the chair isn't that good, this is a natural reflex, absolutely natural, why should a human being stumble over a chair?

To prove these things this example is not suitable.

But for Jim's taken example undressing is very natural...

People who made this example with the chair must fail.
procyonrising
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Not dismissing what Lee Darrow wrote... however, you should know much has happened since Hilgard published the aforementioned book.

First, Spanos (and others) have countered the idea of a Hidden Observer. In fact, whether it exists or not seems to depend upon what the hypnotist says.

Second, hypnosis is not a magic pill. It's a form of social influence; stronger than persuasion, but weaker than, say, peer pressure. People will offer a range of responses, not a predictable set. Some people will comply, some will not.

Thirdly, it's difficult to say the examples mentioned are not valid. Hypnosis releases inhibitions, so a pretty good measure would be, "what would this person do if s/he were drunk?" If the person would take their clothes off when drunk, it's likely they would do so in hypnosis as well.

I will leave you all to read The Illusion of Conscious Will, by Dan Wegner. Wegner is a brilliant man and expert in hypnosis. His book examines nearly every angle of the topic of free will (or illusion of).

Best,
James.
Dannydoyle
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OK drunk is a horrible example to compare to hypnosis. No matter what it releases you are free to reign yourself in at any time. Period.

When your drunk you lose control and that is what makes a difference in the 2. You are in complete control throughout hypnosis.

You are right some will comply some will not. But that is the point. Anyone who tries to enter hypnosis is "complying" do a certian degree now aren't they?

You also have to allow for, at least to a certian degree, people who are what I would call "looking for a reason" to do something outragous. There are people who for whatever reason like to take it further than wanted because they WANT too. It has nothing to do with influence of anyone hypnotist or peer preasure. They want a release and this is a great way to do it. Is this measurable? Nope not at all.

People have coined "hidden observer" and it is kind of appropriate. But I have always called it my survival instinct. It is what makes us keep breathing. You could never shut that off, it always kicks in. It is why your knees buckle and you will fall forward when you pass out and your hands come up to your face for protection. It happens and can NOT be shut off. We are endowed with such a thing either through a greater power or through chance, whichever it is it is real.

No matter how deep in hypnosis you will not override your survival instinct. All animals have it. Wolves know how to hunt when never taught. Animals have survival instincts and so do we. This is our "hidden observer".

How's that Lee? Pretty close?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
dan parker
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Yes the will to survive is in everyone, but that keeps us only to be alive and from physical damage, that provides us not to do murder..
procyonrising
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Danny,

It is a totally acceptable comparison. Orne himself made it.

Best,
James.
Lee Darrow
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Drunkenness is a range of states of cortical depression caused by the interaction of alcohol on the brain. Hypnosis has no such effect whatsoever. Even Barber challenged Orne on that. See Altered States of Consciousness.

Using alcohol as a "it might be similar to" test, well, that might not be a bad "rule of thumb, though. Especially as we are dealing with people on stage who are there to "show off" for their friends, or to bask in the spotlight for a bit (and maybe score the star as well).

As to Spanos - Spanos work on the Hidden Observer were seemingly flawed as well as they were not done in a double blind form, for one thing and they were not controlled for several other confounding variables as well, particularly, they were not well controlld for preconceptions about hypnosis all that well - he used a simple survey, and did not cross-check it at all with other intake means... as was noted in several of the clinical journals around the time of his initial publications. Fromm and Schorr in particular, took exception with his work, as did, if I recall correctly, Barber.

With regard to getting a woman to disrobe, for Dan Parker, that can often be a straw man argument as many women will disrobe given the slightest excuse - see the Girls Gone Wild videos for some excellent examples of that - and alcohol is not involved in all of those scenes, either.

On the issue of the chair test for hypnotic hallucination - the fact that someone does move around the chair does support the safety net idea as the person still protects him or herself, regardless of the level of trance or the level of hallucination. remember, the hypnotized subjects in several of the other tests, particularly the acid throw (with the invisible glass shield) still did not complete the task of throwing the acid, whether it was real or not, because of the concern of splash back from the glass. On some level, they managed to perceive the barrier, even though they could not see it.

And a comment to Jim Poor being my groupie - Why couldn't you have been born a beautiful woman?! Smile But, sincerely, thanks for the compliment.

I hope this helps.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Dannydoyle
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Lee, does "Tranceformations" have anything along these lines in it? It was so long ago that I read it I forget but thought it may be a usefull text.

My problem obviously is I read and remember and apply these things, but FORGET where the heck I read it!!
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Partizan
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Lee says, "Gentlemen, this is a straw man argument. I suggest that you take a look at The Experience of Hypnosis by Hilgard and Hilgard, which tested this very hypothesis and wherein it failed, significantly, every time - and was replicated at Harvard, Yale and University of Chicago."

I would say that these uni types do not have the charisma needed to invoke the required response. Lab tests are fine for hypnotherapy but lack the punch of a stage hypnotist.

I for one can influence people in normal everyday life, this ability when used with hyp is quite different from what a straight (uni bod) can produce.

I am a conman and adept weaver of falshoods, with this background a person can be made to feel that any suggestion I give is rational and ok. The reality I construct even before induction is conducive to my goals.

This in combination of what I know about peoples subconsious desires leads to a powerful set of unusual requests available too me.

When you understand about how one sensation can be made to be another then you will understand the weakness of the "normal behavior" model touted by pro stage hyp's to allay their specs and own conscience.

A oft quoted scenario is to hyp a person too kill. This can be done with ease no matter what the persons moral background is. Anyone who refutes this is just trying to protect their profession.

Dan says "Yes the will to survive is in everyone, but that keeps us only to be alive and from physical damage, that provides us not to do murder.. "

And can be subverted by plucking the right strings.
When is murder not murder?
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
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Jim Poor
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Quote:
A oft quoted scenario is to hyp a person too kill. This can be done with ease no matter what the persons moral background is. Anyone who refutes this is just trying to protect their profession.

True or not, I don't think there is an ethical way to test this....
Partizan
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Ethics are the tools of the zealot.

It has been tested.


Posted: Jan 11, 2006 2:29pm
-------------------------------------------
Before you ask me to qualify "It has been tested." I will reply.

There are many court cases where a spouse killed their partner in the belief that said partner was cheating on them. They later found out that this was not the case and that they had misred the whole situation.

This is not a hard thing to induce.
"You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus."
- Mark Twain
Jim Poor
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I'm not sure that justifies the "no matter what the persons moral background is" part of the statement though. Obviously those people believed that cheating justifies killing (at least in their rage). But someone who does not believe that, may have just left the spouse, filed for divorce, etc. I bet there a lot of legal cases that fit my example too Smile

Take someone who would really never kill under any circumstance, certain monks and others that won't even kill bugs in the house, and try to test them. No way to do it ethically that I can see.
Lee Darrow
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Quote:
On 2006-01-11 14:29, Partizan wrote:
Before you ask me to qualify "It has been tested." I will reply.

There are many court cases where a spouse killed their partner in the belief that said partner was cheating on them. They later found out that this was not the case and that they had misred the whole situation.

This is not a hard thing to induce.


Again, straw man argument. It does not require hypnosis to "induce" this belief, in fact, it is actually easier to do without hypnosis as suspicion seems to come to the fore in hypnosis much easier than it does in the normal waking state - see Spanos, Fromm & Schorr, Watzlwick and even Erickson.

Social comliance has already been shown to be stronger a motivator for wrong doing than hypnosis, as I noted in several prior posts, with citations.

With regard to Wegner, my comments were about Spano's research - not Wegner's directly as I am not as familiar with his work as the poster seems to be. My apoloigies for not making that clear. My comments on the scientific reliablity of his work still stand. Several of the researchers who did the hypnosis work in Spano's study were part-time stage hypnotists, so that part of the argument falls flat. They did have the "chops" to use the colloquialism, to influence the people.

Also, in a clinical setting, the DOCTOR has enormous influence, based on his or her BEING a Doctor. Presuppositions by the patient, volunteer, whatever, is that "this person knows what they are doing - they have the degree and they work in this big hospital and are running this project." A position of authority in a medical situation is also a presumption of competence in most people's minds.

As far as Tranceformations goes, I'd have to go back and take a look. The book isn't indexed as it is literally a transcription of a three-day workshhop that Bump & Grinder, er, uh Bandler & Grinder did about 30 years ago and I haven't re-read it in about three. Sorry about that.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
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