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Malakaneekeenai
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One of these days we need to sign some kind of treaty to stop all these wars.
Fortunatly it seems pretty mellow right now. We all just need to learn how to chill and be cool with oneanother.
-Mala
"Try not to conform to the way others see you as, carve your own path"-Muah
MetalBender
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I think part of the problem extends from younger and younger people getting into XCM and magic. When young people (And I speak from experience here, because I did it too) first get into something they like they search for it all over the internet. They find old posts that still remain from the flame wars, or disparaging posts against the other party somewhere. They read this, and think it's part of what magic or XCM is. They are confused when someone is bashing their new love. The quickest emotion to jump to from confusion (and I know this because of my training in psych) is anger. So they jump on the flame band waggon and it starts again. I'll admit right off the top that I've only been doing seriously advanced card work for a little over three years. I was a juggler before I got into magic and so XCM really apealed to me for obvious reasons. Because I had seen so many problems in the juggling world with people waring over brands I was able to step back and see how petty it was.

It is amazing to me how petty human beings can be, despite how advanced our society has become. You know it wasn't more than fifty years ago that racism was still apart of the U.S. government? I'm an U.S. citizen but I live in Toronto now and they have legalized gay marriage up here. Despite a generally accepting attitude from Canadians concerning the issue there are still hate crimes against gays. Do we as XCMers, Flourishes, Magicians, Cardicians, Mechanics, what ever you call yourself, want to contribute more hate into society? Our differences in opinion on how one should use a deck of cards is so small in the grand scheme of things that it is ridiculous that we get so worked up about it.

Here's the big thing to remember about both XCM and Magic. I think Simon Lovell said, "Being a famous magician is like being a famous gold fish collector. If someone isn't a gold fish collector they won't know who the bloody 'ell you are." I have so much respect for De'vo it's not even funny. He's a huge inspiration to my flourishes. However at the end of the day, he's still a guy like me who's just working to put a roof over his head and food in his belly. Dai Vernon was a great guy, but he didn't abolish slavery. Keep your XCM and Magic heros in perspective. All anyone on this board is a the end of the day is a famous gold fish collector.
"Magic up close and personal, the way is should be."

http://www.DelusionMasters.com
Dredz
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Very well said metalbender. Lots of valid points. Smile
Simon Lovell
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Yep the goldfish collector quote is mine ... and how true it is!

Simon
Moyle with Parkinsons
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Another magician here. I just recently bought XB and watched the whole thing last night man do I have some respect for XCMers, not to say that I didn't before but I was never exposed to how indepth it really goes.

My two cents on the XCMers versus Magicians thing?

Well first off I think this could definately be dying down because I have been in magic for about 2 years now so you could consider me fresh blood to magic and I have never heard of any war between XCMers and magicians. In fact one of my good card friends is an XCMer and has been since I met him and not a word has been said about it between us.

Regardless, I will take on board the fact that there obviously is some sort of war and say this. When I was a kid I used to jump BMX bikes, we hated Mountain Bikers because they wrecked out dirt jumps with their big wheels, we hated skateboarder because they would ruin your lines in the skate park and then blame you when you hit them and we hated bladers and mini skooter kids because they were too lame to ride a bike or a skateboard and all those groups hated us because...well actually I don't know why they hated us just because they did.

The point I am making is this happens everywhere in everthing. A ying must have its yang in other words if you can love something you must also hate something else. Well maybe to strong a word but to like something something else must be disliked. So a war like this is likely never to be resolved.

XCMers v Magicians
Superman v Lex Luther
Batman v The Penguin

The war may never end but don't let that stop you as an indvidual enjoying either art form if you choose. You should remember never to conform to the majority because of the majorities advice, live your life how you want to because ultmately the majority will not remember whose side you were on when you are gone.

Moyle
"Signatures cause far too much trouble!" an original quote by Moyle With Parkinsons.
4Jacks
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Moyle,

It got way stupider than that...

It was XCMer's v Flourishers

It's Like StakeBoarders versus BoardSkaters...

anyhoo, I think it has mostly died down now and it's safe to play outside again.
Vinnie C.
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Moyle,

That is the biggest piece of crap I've ever heared. There does NOT HAVE TO BE ANY TYPE OF WAR. A Yin does NOT have to have a Yang. :-P

But I'm sure De'vo would disagree, as he is the one who always posts his little topics in his "Playa Hata" forum and gets everything fired up...


And as 4Jacks says, it's not just "XCM'ers" against Magicians, it's basically "XCM'ers" against Flourishing, which is pretty much the SAME *** THING.

Not to mention De'vo called HIMSELF a flourisher on his website not a long time ago. :-P
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
rhucko1
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If you don't like to openly display skill then don't; if you do like to openly display skill then do.

Both take time to perfect as well as both take skill. Both are forms of entertainment. One is done conspicuously and the other is done inconspicuously, but they both create a certain effect and give a certain affect on the audience.

The irony here is that many XCMers/flourishers do some magic and many magicians do some flourishes.

However, there still is the possibility of doing both (i.e. some magicians are clowns too); you can choose your situations too.

Thanks,
Rich
"Card experts agree that the colour change, or transformation, is one of the most magical effects possible with a pack of cards."
- Dai Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig by Lewis Ganson & Dai Vernon
JackScratch
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This is kinda like magicians being angry with Penn and Tellar. Most magicians weren't angry with Penn and Tellar until Penn and Tellar said that magicians were angry with them. Thusly some magicians jumped on the Penn and Tellar created Penn and Tellar hating band wagon. There is only a war if the two sides want a war.

I do have to admit, however that "XCM" has contributed greatly to the whole "I don't need no stinking script" thing, which has got to go. I don't care if you are a juggler, a ventriloquist, a magician, or a "street magician" (God I hate that title), you need to do a whole lot more than just execute difficult manuvers. Every entertainer of any kind must develope a relationship with his/her audience. This means scripting, blocking, rehearsing, and editing. I know what you are thinking, "But Jack, I don't talk in my performance, so I don't have to do all that stuff." or "But Jack, I'm not a professional, so I don't have to do all that stuff." or my personal favorite "But Jack, I'm a street magician, and we don't do all that stuff." WRONG!!!!!! Even if you are working to music, you still need to create a logical flow to your performance. Something that gives your audience a reason to watch what you are doing. As for you non pros out there, "Profesionalism, it's not just for profesionals anymore." Unless you intend to only do these things in the privacy of your bathroom with the doors locked, you have no excuse for subjecting any audience to a substandard performance. That's just plain lazy.
4Jacks
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Actually I was thinking something more along the lines of
"But Jack, I don't give a rats butt about these people and sure as heck don't want to talk to them"

Unfortunetly, Even though I mostly agree with you, Proffesionalism is not a prerequisite in anything anymore. Entertainers do NOT have to develope relationship with their audience. Granted that is not good advise to be sucessful, But there are plenty of Professional Athletes who 20 million fans tune in to watch them hit a home run, and yet the most they can do when being interviewed is stare at the grass and answer questions as shortly as possible.

To Assume that an entertainer has to interact with thier audience is to also assume that the audience must appreciate the entertainer as a person as well as their abilities. That is simply not true. Billy Joel is my favorite Musician, but he's a drunk and married to woman 1/4 his age. Two things I pretty much view as not cool and pathetic. But he's not my favorite musician becuase of his stellar role model appeal, he's my favorite musician becuase of his music.

The same is true with Cards. I Like Cards, and I like to see people who are really good with them. Jonas is a complete jerk and murders little innocent Kittens, But he's still really good with the deck, so I watch all his videos and appreciate his talent.

De'Flare on the other hand, He's the nicest guy, he would lay down his life for a complete stranger, But he can't even do charlier sybil is more liked a sykill...


Wow, I type too much and most of that was a lie.... Jonas doesn't murder kittens, and De'flare isn't Nice...

Goodnite!
silverking
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I think an XCM'er who had read and followed the advice in Darwin Ortiz's "Strong Magic" would themselves be amazed at how much better their presentation was.

Perhaps the single biggest jump XCM can take is when somebody with the right chops creates an artistically driven 15 or 20 minute show that can really connect with laypeople.

That means not only chops, but set, lighting, music, staging, direction, etc.

Of course this person will be vilified by the XCM underground, but it won't matter because they'll be the person the general public thinks of when they think of XCM. They'll probably also be wealthy, which will give them the leeway to continue to develop their public image.

That person doesn't yet exist for the general public. For that matter, neither does XCMitself exist outside of the underground.
I'm not sure things like the Ullmen Challenges help move XCM forward.
The public doesn't respond to hooded folks meeting in torchlight in the middle of the night, they like to be amazed by a person that they can personally connect to, maybe even a person that they genuinely like.

XCM will either break out, or may segment itself into even smaller and less well known subsets of itself, becoming even more underground in the process.

Regardless, the potential for XCM is very strong. It's an amazingly visual art form that, like dice stacking, most folks have never seen before and are instantly struck with the moves as they are seeing them for the first time.

I want to see that first breakthrough XCM artist!

(P.S. Who would have ever thought that ALL of TV viewing America would ever know the names of two quick-change artists a'la "Americas Got Talent", which indicates that even the remotest of art forms can rise to the very top of the American publics collective imagination.)
Vinnie C.
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It all depends on how you present it. If De'vo plays his cards right, he has a good chance of pulling it off.

But who knows. We'll see.
"Living is easy with eyes closed."
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