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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
This has always been a great spot for buskers to share their ideas and wisdom. I have noticed a trend lately that when someone new to busking comes by and asks a question they are belittled and spoken to in a condescending manner.
When somebody asks a question why is it that some feel the need to respond to them in the negative? I've seen comments that sound a lot like this: "Come on? Why would you do that?", "Not quite,pal", "Well, that isn't how you should be doing it." I have purposely not quoted anyone because I am hoping to make a point instead of pointing fingers. But, the vibe of a lot of these responses is quite condescending and belittling to the original poster. I understand that some people take no greater joy in life than when they are able to point out the short comings of others. That is a sad state of affairs but it is the way the world is. What I would like to ask is that we all try and read the post before we hit the post button and think about how we would like to be spoken to when we first started posting here. The only stupid question is the one that isn't asked. If a new person asks a question and I feel qualified to help, I always try and answer it with the respect that person deserves. And every new person who asks a question in this area deserves to be spoken to with a modicum of respect. I have always enjoyed posting here but the way I have seen new folks treated has caused me to post less and less. Thanks, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
I agree with you Dan but I do feel if you can’t give a clear example or Name a Name then this thread, that is very well intended will just lead to speculation and back biting.
May be you should just PM them! On the other hand if you see this tacking place just continue to come against it with the opposite Spirit rather than stay away. I mean Affirm the question; high light that you think it is a good question and if you can, proceed to answer it. I have noticed Dave VanVranken putting himself down ever since the thread I started "Real Buskers Please come forward". May I say Dave that thread was never intended to undermine anyone. Please stop undermining your self it does not suit you. You do give valuable advice by which you should feel confidant to give. One may not agree with every thing you say but that is not a bad thing. Happy New-year. Mario PS I am not suggesting we start nameing names but rather tackle the problem as it arrises with possitve feedback. That,s just my thought on it. |
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Parcifal New user 50 Posts |
This forum is intendet to help fellow magicians,wheather they are buskers,whatever.
These days I find it difficult to discover that goal in most postings! |
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flimnar Special user Salt Lake 577 Posts |
Well said, Danny. This is true in virtually every field of endeavor. I started flying remote control airplanes some time ago, and there is an omnipresent group of experienced fliers who mostly sit in chairs at the airfield and shake their heads in dismay at the mistakes made by the new fliers--"What has flying come to; it is not nearly as good as it used to be...." It happens at work. It happens in sports. It happens everywhere. Of course, there are always those veterans who are willing to help the new-comers, and that represents the best of the Café. On the other hand, I know that in the areas where I have skill and experience, it wears me down to see the same mistakes and hear the same questions over and over and over and over. I guess it requires perserverance and a bit of a thick skin on the part of new-comers to get a good start. And it requires patience--sometimes extraordinary patience--to put up with the frustrations of dealing with less experienced people. Let's remember when we were just starting, and the experienced professionals who reached out to mentor. Three great people to learn from--Danny, Mario and Dave. You don't know me at all, yet I learn a lot reading your posts. Thanks!
Flimnar
"This one goes to eleven..." Nigel Tufnel
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Jaz Inner circle NJ, U.S. 6111 Posts |
Thanks for the post Danny. More should feel this way.
I'm not a Busker but have seen these negatives elsewhere. Let's say someone ask for help with patter for an effect. The reply shouldn't be, "That's a dumb idea. It don't need patter." So it may be dumb to this responder but it's not dumb to the poster and they want patter not remarks. Poster says,"I don't have Card College. Are there any other sources for learning the Side Slip?" Reply is, "Anyone who's really interested in card magic should have CC. Save your money and buy it." The responder don't know this poster so why this remark? Not very helpful is it? Think first, think again, then post. Thank again Danny. |
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Right on Dan! I agree, and I will also state for the record that I don't post here too often either, because of the same feelings and observations that you highlighted.
But any busker with an ounce of experience has stories of being knocked around on pitch by competitive, bored or jealous performers. In many places the entrenched locals make life VERY unpleasant for buskers just passing through. And it seems to me that the crosstalk here on the Café is nothing more or less than how a "newbie" is treated on the street. I'm not saying it's correct (because it's not); I'm merely stating an observation. The 'problem' (notice the hash marks please) as I see it here in the busking section of the Café, is that you have Stage and Street actors mixing their bits of advise equally. Yet in real life it is rare to find buskers with equal parts stage and street experience on their resume. Hence, the situation is perfectly designed for creating frequent confusion and bruised feelings. And make no mistake, but that busking is a lifestyle, not a performance style. It doesn't matter how you busk -- whether as a living statue, a juggler, a mime, or even a magician or escape artist -- and it doesn't matter how big (or small) your show is either: A busker is a whole other breed. Kudos to Gazzo (someone I have known since I was 15 years old and he was a complete nobody) for all his accomplishments and classes and the students he has taught, but taking in a Gazzo lecture doesn't make you a busker, folks. I realize I'm rambling a bit fellas, but the point I'm ultimately trying to reach, is to say that most of the differences of opinion here are caused by these kinds of misunderstandings. Mario, and others like him (like me for instance) are what you might term Hard Core. I practically live on the street, and I know I'm not the only one. We have our own language and our own lifestyle, and no matter how many classes you take, or how many books you read, you just don't become a busker without passing any number of real life tests and trials -- the likes of which are almost NEVER discussed here as far as I can tell. Think about it. Remove all references to cups & balls, magic, or Gazzo, from this section and what remains? There are hundreds of fantastically interesting topics yet to be discussed here. Topics that actually frame and describe the busking lifestyle. Finished venting now. Kudos to any who made it all the way through my rant. The soap box is now available..... Chance |
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Dynamike Eternal Order FullTimer 24148 Posts |
I am with you also, Danny. A few people were giving me negative remarks previously. That is not what this is about. Thank you very much.
Dynamike |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Thanks guys and Chance, you're the man.
Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Mark Rough Inner circle Ivy, Virginia 2110 Posts |
Good points everyone. It's actually why I haven't spent much time around here lately. The slagging often get's to be a bit much. Not that I want any Ozzie and Harriet nicey nicey BS either.
Mark
What would Wavy do?
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JamesinLA Inner circle Los Angeles 3400 Posts |
Thanks, Danny, for elevating the tone and encouraging everyone to lift our eyes to a higher purpose.
I'm really interested in what Chance was talking about, which is busking as a lifestyle. We should talk some about that. I've read and reread a few of the busking books that have been published. (I've even cowrote one with Danny and Gazzo.) I find busking an aluring topic. Maybe its appeal is part running away ith the circus and part just getting outside and having a ball with a hundred people laughing at my jokes etc. Certaining, if busking has made me a better entertaining (much better!) which has consquently made me a better magician, then talking about busking in general would also add to that. Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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Parcifal New user 50 Posts |
Busking IS a lifestyle!
There are performers that also not having worked the streets/pubs that in their heart are/where REAL buskers,I'll name just a single one:Bob ReadHe was in his heart,in his performancestyle and of course in the choice of the tricks he did a REAL busker and he loved to use a 'hat' though not to collect money.Every single routine he did was that of a busker, 'Transpo Tumbler','C&Bs', Glass through table(using his hat) Knife through coat, whatever,he was the prototype of a REAL busker without performing on the street for a hat.Moretti,if that name means anything to you was a true busker-in his mind- too, you know the guy with the incredible cardboardbox illusion, that crawled out of the box dresses as a clown and with a chicken on his head, that was busker material all the way through, as was his crossbow act. |
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Danny Hustle Inner circle Boston, MA USA 2393 Posts |
Bob Read was a great busker. No, really. He spent quite a bit of time busking in pubs when he was a young man. I was fortunate enough to have talked to Bob a few times and got the information straight from the man.
Busking means performing for tips only. But the thing I enjoy most Parcifal is you have just made a mind numbingly nasty post filled with insults and caustic comments and it has been left alone. That is really showing your "busker spirit" Wow, I do not know why I bother. Best, Dan- "MT is one of the reasons we started this board! I’m so sick of posts being deleted without any reason given, and by unknown people at that." - Steve Brooks Sep 7, 2001 8:38pm ©1999-2014 Daniel Denney all rights reserved. |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
Well said Danny
Mario PS If you did not bother there be no hope. |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
It seems to me that things have swung in two directions here, and is one of the reasons that I have lately just stayed away from here.
1. Either people get a nasty, insulting, condescending response to honest and worthwhile questions. Or 2. People come here and rather than do a search or simply look around, ask the same old questions which have been asked and answered a hundred times already. Both types are untolearable bores. And my patience with both types has run out. So I have moved on to friendlier haunts. Adios Amigos. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Chance Inner circle 1385 Posts |
Bro David you just described pretty much the entire internet. The phenomenon you described can be found at any bb out there. Rather than allow yourself to get drug down by a few undersireables, why not stick around and help us fight the good fight?
You might start by locating those worthwhile questions that never got a decent response, and giving one of your own. If there are too many to handle alone, feel free to PM some of them to me. We'll tackle them together. And maybe that will be a good example for others to follow. Chance |
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Mario Morris Inner circle Mario Morris 2044 Posts |
BroDavid
I like your signature. (If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.) It strikes me that a few folk have got upset with my thread "Real Buskers Come Forward". On the other hand most Buskers thought it was good I got lots of PM and emails of conflicting thoughts I mean lots and it is still going on. **** man give me a break. One thing is for certain I hope the newcomers to busking find it helpful. That is what it was meant to be. Now the only folk that got upset with it are the ones that try to pass them self’s of as something there not. As far as newcomers asking the same old question over and over again, to a newcomer it is a new and far from a bore. Buskers will take great pleaser to answer it; we just want you to know who the buskers are. If we are going to talk about life stile, every pitch I have worked and every busker that I have meet will watch each others back. They watch your stuff while you get a coffee; offer you a place to lay your head. They will come to your defense if get into real trouble. Because buskers just get pushed around all the time by the law, shop owners, public and society. I am not just talking Magic Buskers but the whole countless of thousands in the Buskers community. When we are loved we are loved and when we are hated we are despised and hated. Our art is often misunderstood what good art isn’t? Buskers roots have a lot in common with gypsy I wonder why? Since my thread “Real Buskers Come Forward” I have felt like that I have been on the streets in hear, folk have tried to push me around, I received abuse sweeping statements about me, or piles of crap. I will say this; the real Buskers did come forward and watch my back and have looked out for me. I am indebted to you, you know who you are, you’re the straight talkers, you don't mix and match. You call a spade a spade. New comers you may learn C&B and all piles of tricks but learn this one code Buskers watch each others back period. Read the recent post read in-between the lines and you will see who are the real buskers. If you want to survive on the streets learn this priceless code. Mario PS Answers my ""Fat Hat Magic" Buskers and Sideshow Shop, you miserable ****s. |
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GraytScot New user Dark side 18 Posts |
Thank you I left this sight for quite a while because of that fact now that I have more time under my belt and know just a small bit more than I did I'm back
Thank you for posting the truth. the real problem is its happening in the Magic shops to I wasn't given any real help until I had been shopping there for a year. Once they saw that I was sticking with it I receved tips on how to better my magic
Professional Reality Bender
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ringmaster Inner circle Memphis, Down in Dixie 1974 Posts |
Consid´ring the responces I've gotten when I've answered others questions, I'm no longer going to post on this site. I will be back in the bussiness soon and I'm not going to give away hard earned knowage to pearl glomming swine .I'll restrict my sharing to BCA and Perfomers net where people show respect for there pears.
One of the last living 10-in-one performers. I wanted to be in show business the worst way, and that was it.
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24312 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-09 04:24, Parcifal wrote: I'm not going to get nasty with you over this, Parcifal, but as Danny pointed out, a "busker" is a person who performs for tips. I know that Bob Read busked at one time, but I don't think Hans Moretti ever did, unless it was shortly after the War. During that time, a lot of very well-known performers performed basically as buskers, because it was the only way they could eat. Borodin performed in bars when he was a boy. He got paid in cigarettes. That's pretty close to busking. But at some point, he got away from that and managed to get into legitimate theatre. Some legit theatre people look down on buskers as some kind of scum. That's a really bad attitude. You learn a lot about people, how they think and react, when you busk. And you can go many different directions, too. The Texas blues legend, Sam "Lightnin'" Hopkins was a busker until he was discovered by a record producer. Then he became a night club performer and a recording artist. There are some really strange acts in the world of busking. One of my favorites is Artis the Spoon Man. He's a hoot! He knows how to build a tip, and GTFM! I came from what was basically a "legitimate performance" background. My father was a concert musician. It took me a while to get over the idea that busking was not begging. It felt somehow dishonorable to me. It took some attitude adjustment on my part to understand that the money the audience puts into your hat is as significant as the money someone pays for a ticket. Sometimes it's more significant. The first $100 bill I got in my hat erased all doubts in my mind. I'll never be an itenerant busker. But I certainly won't ever look down on them, either. And I hope they won't look down on me.
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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Doug Higley 1942 - 2022 7152 Posts |
There's some talk about leaving the Café due to the negatives...guess that's understandable but there is so much positive as well...and experience and knowledge freely given. Just look to Bill Palmer's posts for an obvious example and so many others that it's worth the tussle of putting up with the negs. 'Chance' has a good angle as well, to get in the arena with good helpful posts where they are needed.
Bill...I found that post interesting...when on the street, I looked up to the working pros on a stage but I never felt looked down upon...youthful ignorance maybe. In the mid 50's, I cut school a lot and bought a bunch of wholesale wind up toy Bears that walked around on 4 legs...and hit Times Square on occasion working the sidewalk...(guts)...later on when I had a real job...I did my Marionettes on what ever street corner that was handy on a weekend...didn't care much about the hat as it was better than doing the Magic and Escape Act in showcases which were not as fun as working the passersby and getting the smiles. In the late 60's I worked the streets of San Francisco outside Night Clubs as a Barker (not called 'talker' in that biz) and in the 70's, 80's etc. took all that and from time to time began working the mean streets of the Flea Markets (hahaha) with pitched sales as well as my sideshows. Heck...it was Outdoors (!) but again on weekends when I was off. So techincally not an itinerant Busker either...but I'm gathering up all the knowledge I can gather (thanks M. Café) and hope to get out there again at this late stage of life and rekindle the good feeling of gathering the tip and puttin' on the show. I was never out there when there was a lot of competition and dog eat dog...just the occasional cop on the beat...but I always got along with them pretty much. Puppets got cut a lot of slack back then. Buskers are a hard workin' lot so I don't think I'd have been good at it full time... Thanks for listenin'
Higley's Giant Flea Pocket Zibit
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