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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Ever so sleightly » » Cups and balls, chop cup, or combo? (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Beetroot
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I've read other threads and I can't glean the info I'm after, so here's a new post.

I'm interested in learning a chop cup routine, but have an interested in cups and balls also. I need to decide what kit to buy. If I were to buy a cup and ball/chop cup combo set, would I be missing out on anything in particular if I didn't buy a dedicated chop cup?

Cheers,

Beetroot
Joedy
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Personally, I think that a combo set will work out the best for you and will give the best bang for the buck as far as investment concerns go.

Look for a combination set that has all of the cups identical in size and dimensions.

By using gaffed, non-gaffed or a combination of the two types of balls, you can create some astonishing illusions.

Also, consider the sizes of the cups in your decision. Large cups are good for stage presentations, but I find that the smaller cups suit my preferred close up style.

Joedy Drulia
Shenandoah Valley, VA
Beetroot
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Thanks Joedy,

I'm actually leaning towards the combo set that I believe has the sizes of which you speak. I imagine, from what you have said, that perhaps an advantage of the combo set is that you can do straightforward cups and balls, straightforward chop-cup, or some weird combination.

I'm looking into buying one of the following 3 books:

1. John Bannon - Impossibilia
2. Michael Ammar - The Complete Cups and Balls book
3. The Dai Vernon Book of Magic

Do you or anyone else know whether any or all of these cover combo routines?

I've never tried using a chop cup before so I'm quite looking forward to it.
Joedy
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There was an article in Genii Magazine describing Michael Skinner's "Rub A Dub Dub" Cups and Balls routine that uses a total of five balls. The action and the patter work together to form a neat presentation. I've been working on this routine and like it a lot. Basically, the story follows three sailors (the three balls that the spectators know of) and three ships, which happen to be the cups. The story goes on about how they try to jump up on the ship, only to fall down through (penetrate the cups). In the end, the sailors even penetrate the hand that holds a cup.

It's a nice routine and I wish that I could have had the opportunity to watch Mr. Skinner perform it.

There really is no limit on the cups and balls possibilities as far as routines go. The surprise load item idea leaves a lot to mind as far as punch lines on routines.

I wish that I could help you on which set to purchase, but I do not have an intimate knowledge of the many brands and makes out there.

Could anyone else help out?

Joedy
what
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A great Chop Cup & Balls Routine is "The Mendoza Cups & Balls" by John Mendoza. His routine uses the Chop Cup combo to keep you from having to vanish a ball in your hands with a false transfer (a sleight that many spectators can spot, even when done well). The entire routine is very clean and fun to do and watch
Magic is fun!!!
fwee
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Beetroot,

None of the books you mention carry combo cup routines. Impossibilia has a cups and balls routine and a chop cup routine. Vernon's book of magic has a cups and balls routine and Ammars Complete Cups and Balls only covers straight cups and balls.

-Fred
Beetroot
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This is all useful info. Thanks, guys!
Scott Ocheltree
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I have 2 sets of Morrisey cups. One of the sets is the chop/combo set. I have to say that I am not very happy with either set. I haven't actually ever used the chop/combo set. My biggest complaint regarding these cups is the very shallow indentation on the bottom of the cups. The chop/combo set is almost perfectly flat on the bottom. This makes it very hard to have a ball stay on top of an inverted cup.

I have the Steven's Magic Cups and Balls video, it is okay in my opinion as a tool to get some ideas about the basic handling of the cups and balls but not a great instructional tool for learning a specific routine.

I have learned the routine in the Mark Wilson course for the plain cups and I enjoy the simplicity of this basic routine.

I really love this effect but my problem is the formal requirement of standing behind a table to perform it. Even in my parlor work I rarely stand behind my table.

Consequently I have put the Riser/Loomis chop cup on my Christmas wish list. I am hoping that Mr. Loomis' one cup in the hand routine will fit my performing style better.
Geoff Ray
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Beetroot,

I also think that combo sets are the best, but maybe you should try all three and then use what you feel most comfortable with? Just a thought.
:magicrabbit:
simage
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I am actually very, very pleased with my Morrisey combo set. I do an adaptation of the Mendoza routine and it never fails me. This, in my humble opinion, is one of the best ways to experience misdirection. There is both spatial and time misdirection in this routine. I also have the Ammar tapes and book set, but have taken very little from it so far. This is not to say that this set is not a great way to develop a C&B routine, I just haven't done so yet.

I have also used the chop cup alone for close up. It works out very nicely. I also use crocheted balls, so maybe they stay on top of the inverted cups better. Anyway, I haven't had any problem with that.

One general statement: the cups and balls are generally performed seated, or with a table and Giberciere or Servante which allows the NATURAL movement of the body, arms, chest etc. I use a small table w/ Servante to perform on. However, it is just about 6" to short. So now I take a bar stool with me which allows me to perform more naturally. As minor as this may sound it is very necessary. Smile
Definitely a nerd, in science, technology, and magic.
Daniel Faith
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Go with the combo set. You don't have to use them that way but if you want or need to, you can. Just buy an extra normal ball and eliminate the M ball as desired.
Smile
Daniel Faith
atkinsod
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A couple of comments:

The Mendoza and the Sequel (that also uses a combo set) can be purchased from Morrissey Magic in Canada. Another book that has combo routines is Shute's Cups Cups Cups. It is a decent book and pretty inexpensive.

I prefer a dedicated chop cup, and I did just get the Riser Micro Chop Cup. It is very nice and I recently posted a review at MagicTalk. However, Johnson Products has just released a Chop Cup that matches their highly praised Cups & Balls set. The set of four would be a bit expensive at around $260 but if you really want to use them, it would probably be worth it!

Finally, my non-commercial website has a reference guide to the Cups & Balls and the Chop Cup. The lists provide many of the books, videos, and products available.

Doug A.
http://magicref.tripod.com
0pus
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I think that a chop cup routine is best performed using a cup that looks ungimmicked. Since nesting is not an issue when you are using only one cup, why not use a coffee mug chop cup or an ungimmicked cup with an Omega Ring (or other something special)?

If you do wish to get into a traditional cups and balls routine, you should look around at some of the upscale sets (Sisti/Riser). Many have matching chop cups you can get at that time.

While you are at it, take a look at Gary Ouellet's "Two Goblets" from the Camirand Academy; it's the best combo cup routine in my opinion (and only uses two cups -- duh!).
JSMagic
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I like Cups and Balls more than Chop Cup. More "amazing" routine. Josh
If a magician is not intending to "trick" a spectator, why is every "trick" called a magic "trick"?
joseph
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I think cups and balls are ok as long as it is kept simple. If I can't follow what's going on, how can the laymen? I prefer the simple to follow Chop Cup, and Doug Henning's routine is simple, but beautiful. Smile
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." (Einstein)...
R2
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What is the best idea for Cups and Balls Storyline ever heard or seen by anyone viewing this thread?

I have a very nice set of Copper spun Cups and at least once a day I sit down and perform the routine hoping to watch an original story grow out of the movements.

I have a few goofy stories and such but, none too dramatic or engaging. Can anyone help? Smile
JSRovner
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I've come up with a routine using one regular cup and a matching chop cup. I use the Johnson Products cups, which are very nice. In my routine, the audience only sees one ball. I think that makes the routine much easier to follow, especially for kids, than the standard cup and ball routine. The ball penetrates one cup, then two, then moves from one cup to the other, then from my pockets back to the cups, and ends with the final production of two potatoes. I allow the audience to inspect the cups and ball beforehand, and bring in the extra ball from under my arm in the guise of folding my arms while the cups are being examined. I like the routine because it has no false transfers, no angle problems and no slow spots. In my view, the chop cup makes the routine much more convincing.
zombieboy
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Try Charlie Frye's eccentricks video for a great cups and balls/chop cup combo routine. I use it, and the final load sequence is invisible!
Magictrickster
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They are not cheap, but the Johnson Products cups are a set you'll not be disappointed with. They are beautiful props.

I personally think it's worth learning a routine using the standard cups rather than using a chop cup as part of the set as I think this is more elegant magically. (having said that, I've still not fully mastered the effect - I think it takes a lot of work to perfect).

I've also got a set of morriset cups which started as a combo set, but I banged the magnetic one too hard one day when rehearsing with them and the magnet dropped out!

Brian.
Brian
tkuhns
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I don't think there's anything wrong with using combo cups, nor anything inherently "better" about using a regular set. Remember, it's not the METHOD but the EFFECT that matters to the spectators.

Of course, without a gimmick it does require skill, and developing that skill will make you a better magician overall. For example, I'm having lots of fun with some of the loading moves in Ammar's book.

But laymen are ignorant of the combo cups and I like the idea of using them to avoid false transfers. I'm always self-conscious about those, and you always have to worry about angles. It's just so much easier to retention vanish a sponge ball or a coin than those light, tiny crocheted balls...
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