Hello peoples
Sudoku is increasing in poularity, well in Australia anyway.

Now is there in print anywhere a magic square routine that is similar to Sudoku.

as I think an audience will relate to Sudoku faster than a magic square

or is a magic square very similar to Sudoku as I have only seen a few Magic Squares and am not up to date with the latest versions

Thank you

Dave
( and Yes I am posting it here because magic squares are in Mentalism and Mentalists would be the guys to answer it)

What an excellent question... thanks for raising it.

My daughter and I have been playing around with a home made "game" between 2 to 4 players which we've dubbed "Samuari Sudoku"... but the thought did cross my mind that it would be fun to play with the Soduku theme in a routine. (Yes - It's enormous in Canada too!)

We found with the game design that we had to go to a "kids' Soduku" grid ( 6 X 6) to keep it light enough for actual game playing. Using a 9 X 9 grid (1-9 numbers) was just to tough to sustain. I suspect the same would apply here. From a presentational stand-point I suspect you'd need to work with 1 to 4 or 5 numbers to stay engaging.

So a related question is... is there a magic square type formula for a 4 X 4 or 5 X 5 grid with non repeating numbers? Any mathematicians on line? ;>)

The presentational elements I'll ponder over the weekend and return.

Cheers,

James

Carefull Biss. You had better run it by the comity. You don't want to steal somebodies idea. This could have come out just yesterday.

Good luck to both of you. I don't know what this game is, but I think it will be interesting to see what you two come up with.

Hickok has a routine in Mentalism Inc. which is not Sudoku, but an empty grid wich you fill with numbers that all sum up to a specific number. The numbers are chosen by the audience (no force, but some practical limits). Very impressive when you do it, and so easily. Not only does the sums add up horisontally and vertically, but also the corners, the diagonal, the centre piece etc etc. Until you invent the Sudoko variant, this one is even more impressive!

I have been working on presntation using these things.

But it is for a magic square presntation and uses the Sudocu by way of explanation.

Jack

H.o.A-X

I have seen the Hickok routine when he was in Australia- great lecture too

I guess with a bit of work you could suggest to the audience that this is the advanced level- you won't find this in your local paper this is for the Association of American (or Australian etc) Sudoku Players

but I agree with Jack- that using Sudoku as an explanation is the way to go as proper Sudoku just isn't the same as a Magic Square.

I'll just have to play a bit more Sudoku and think up a good routine with it.

I am regular sudoku player. It is wonderful daily mental exercise. And it is gaining in popularity.

Since I open most of my shows with the Magic Square presentation in my book...I haven't thought about a connection between Sudoku and the Magic Square - other than they both use numbers.

When doing a magic square as a mentalist...I believe it is critical that you NOT call it a Magic Square. In my presentation, I call it "Einstein's Demise"...because it was the one math exercise that Einstein couldn't do.

That said, here's my attempt at a new Sudoku-related presentation.

Ask the people in your audience to raise their hands if they have played Sudoku. Comment on how popular Sudoku has become. Pencil sales have increased in the USA for the first time in 20 years. Tell your audience that you are going to show them a new math exercise from Japan - called Hadoku -that is catching on just like Sudoku.

Explain that Hadoku starts with a 9 box, 16 box, or 25 box grid...and a target number. The goal is to get the numbers in the rows and columns to add up to the target. Some numbers are printed in the boxes to help you get started. The most difficult Hadoku starts with no numbers in any of the boxes...and a random target number.

Get a target number from an audience member...and quickly filll in the 16 boxes. Allow the audience to SEE you do the math. Then show people the other combinations that exist.

Like all mentalism, it is important to make your magic square presentation quick, fun and interesting.

For those who own my Diagonal Magic Square, the Hadoku patter could be used to move from a basic MS demostration into the DMS when working for a small group. Just say, lets make this harder by letting YOU add some numbers to the blank grid.

Hadoku is a name I made up. I don't believe Hadoku exists. Have fun with this...I will be away from my computer for a week in Italy.

Chuck Hickok
P.S. The Diagonal Magic Square was limited to 250 copies and is Sold Out.

I play Sudoku sometimes, I guess it would be interesting to put something together with it, Chuck's idea sounds great. Where can I learn more about this? I LOVE Italy btw!

Anabelle

Geees

that's fantastic Chuck

thanks

Chuck

Great variation! Thanks. Why did I not think of Hadoku Love your book by the way!!!

Endre

What an interesting thought. I think it would go down really well with audiences. I think 'Hadoku' will be the closest we can get to a sudoku style magic sqaure problem so well done Chuck.

Bravo...nice brainstorming Chuck and company. "Haduko" rules! ;>)

I think presentationally the idea of "a much more advanced version of Sudoku" is lovely - and plausable. Ditto Jack.

Couple of thoughts did occur to me last night as I drove home from a gig though. Since an actual Sudoku has only one solution, there would be a prediction effect possibility. That is, the completed grid, can only be one thing - which in turn could be "predicted" in advance. It's not very exciting but it's something. [My friend Haim Goldenberg (originally from Israel, but now in Toronto) has done some nice work with a maze solution in a prediction presentation for example and perhaps there's similar possibilities.]

Also, if four or five numbers and positions were forced onto a simple grid (see my reference to 6 X 6 above), the Sudoku solution for the whole grid would be inevitable - and hence predictable.

Finally, DOES anyone out there know of Magic Squre mathematics which prevents duplication of numbers? I'm truly mathematically impaired but there must be some work done on non repeating numbers in a grid...

Cheers,

James


P.S. AnaBELLA (that's my Italian for Anabelle ;>) ... where's Coral Gables in relation to Tampa or Sarasota? I'm getting married in March in Venice (scooza, Florida not Italy!) and would love to connect with more Florida mentalists.

Great presentation, Chuck! Now I'm even more glad I grabbed one of the last copies of Diagonal Magic Square at Mindvention!

James, here are some great places to start researching Magic Square mathematics, and see if they have the type of mathematics for which you're looking.

Grogono Magic Squares Home Page
Mark Farrar's Magic Squares pages
Knight's Tour Magic Square?
Magic Squares, Indeed!
Nested Magic Squares webpage

Thanks Scott...

I'll do some digging and report back ... first chance I get.

Cheers,

James

Nice thoughts by chuck Hickok, but that is no surprise.

I was looking for a hook for a magic square type routine and Hadoku fits the bill.

Also I just picked up Mentalism 2 and it is just perfect for what I was looking to develop for my Corporate shows, some nice magic, but even more thinking on performing.

Hey! I've been doing magic square effect with sudoku theme since december 2005!!!

Those of you who enjoyed my "30 Second Memorized Deck" will appreciate my new article on magic squares in the upcoming issue of "Soapbox Derby." In it, I tip the mitt on the math and provide a solid and commercial routine.

I'll make the issue available online soon.

Well I'm glad I asked the question then

Posted: Jan 15, 2006 6:00pm
And then as an additional bonus top up sale

you could print up impossible magic squares to sell to those interested in taking the next step beyond Sudoku.

They'll be at home trying to figure it out for months.

but I guess you could sell Sudoku books which should be easy to print up and the answers are on your web site

but I do like the idea of being known as a Sudoku Expert

A caveat... Sudoku is not a numerical game; it involves no mathematics whatsoever, and merely uses the digits "1" through "9" as nine different shapes. Most computer version of Sudoku, in fact, allow for shapes other than the common digits.

So attempting to draw too close a connection between something that is not numerical and something (a magic square) that most decidedly is will cause a knowledgable audience to recognize your lack of sophistication in such matters.

Yes, a completed Sudoku puzzle is usually a square grid filled with single-digit numbers -- the name comes from "Su" (number) + "Doku" (single) -- but its similarity to a magic square ends there.

Yes I am well aware of that.

which is why Hadoku would be the idea presenatation--- but I would suggest we research a proper name for it- for those Japanese speaking people

Su maths or something