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markiquark Regular user 185 Posts |
Hi there,
I have a question. I have been in magic for two years now, which probably means I am still a beginner, but I think I at least know enough to have an opinion. I am wondering why the pass is so important. It is supposedly considered to be the best method to bring a card to the top. But why is that when there are countless methods, false-shuffles and cuts in particular? I think, when you really love technical stuff the pass is great for that very reason: it's kind of funky it exists and fascinating to see someone execute it with brilliance. But is it really superior or less suspicious? Thanks for your input.
If you are going to Puerto Vallarta on your acations, let me know and write me a PM. I am interested in meeting magicians.
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Owen Thomas Special user 504 Posts |
The pass is a control that, when done properly, the spectators won't have seen anything happen at all. With shuffle controls they watch you play with the cards.
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
It's a very effective move for someone who is adept at it. It also seems to be a right of passage that aspiring magicians are forced or compelled to go through. For the ACR you don't need it, but you certainly can use it there. You also don't need it to control a card to the top or bottom (side steal, Kelly Bottom Replacement etc. all work well) but if you do it well it can be used in that way. Learn it, but discover yourself how useful it is in a given situation. Some do it very well and some, well, shouldn't do it.
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
It's very important if you have an effect that requires it.
If not, it's of no use at all and completely unimportant.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts |
The pass is useful because it is more versatile than just controlling a card to the top. It can control a specified card or block of cards to any location in the deck. It does this without causing the deck to get out of order and, when done well, it happens without creating any suspicion of manipulation.
Single card controls change the order of the deck which isn't always desired and they often can't be used for blocks of cards. False cuts and shuffles are overt manipulation which greatly diminishes the impact of some effects. The pass is also difficult to do well so those who can often earn reputations as excellent magicians regardless of the quality of their magic. There is at least one person I know of who never really did magic but learned to do a pass so well that he could have magicians gushing about how great he was. The pass is also worth studying because a truly invisible pass is IMPOSSIBLE. There are those who would say I'm wrong and name many great magicians who use the pass well as evidence. They are wrong and what most don't realize is that learning to make the pass appear to be invisible is a great excercise in magical thinking. Mixing choreography and timing and subtleties that take years to learn and work out one can create the illusion of an invisible pass which goes unnoticed by spectators and causes magicians to gush. Even if one doesn't find a use that absolutely requires a pass learning to do it well does have value. Dave |
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Christopher Williams Inner circle Portsmouth, UK 4464 Posts |
People made other controls, some because they couldn't do a convincing Pass, or they thought that their control suited them more. I'm still trying to find a control that suits me. The pass is the best and most convincing control IMO. I think the only control that comes close to the Pass is Lee Ashers Losing control. Though, now I am using the Losing Control after Lee showed it to me, I realized it does work and it can fool, even a room full of magicians. The other control I am working on is Aaron Shiels' Dribble Pass which Kostya Kimlats showed me. It's awesome and so invisible and convincing.
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squando Elite user 444 Posts |
What are the best printed and video sources of great pass lessons?
Frank
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-17 16:01, squando wrote: Below is a therad that will help with lots of sources. Best of luck!!!! Chris http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......006e006d
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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Dizzy Elite user UK 437 Posts |
Whenever magicians talk about the pass I remember the first time I saw Jamy Ian Swiss performing it, it was awesome.
Diane |
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Memory-Jah Inner circle Germany 1438 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-17 15:09, David Nelson wrote: I don't agree with you. To make a pass invisible is possible and it never takes years. Making the pass invisible is just by covering or making a natural movement. and with that it cannot be seen. You have so many misdirection factors you can use in addition.... There is of course something about the pass which takes years... but that's not making it invisible. It is getting the handling of the classic pass and get the movement down in flesh and blood and get expierence to do it during the right time. After years of practice you might be able to do the pass like Krenzel or Dingle. They can make the pass so fast and perfect that even the normal classic pass is invisible. They make it without any covering. It is breathtaking to watch them and even R. Kaufman said that only the classic (not the invisible one) takes years of practice... @topic: a pass is not only used to bring a card on top. or several cards... it is a crucial tool for nullydying a cut too!
"Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible." - Count Elmsley
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kramerica2010 Veteran user 329 Posts |
I think the pass is very underestimated. Everyone has to realize that the specs are not watching the deck like a hawk after you put their card in. All you have to do is patter and get their eyes to shift towards your eyes so they aren't looking at the cards. You don't even need a good pass. In a second of misdirection while you are gesturing with your hands or coughing or stomping a cockroach (A la Bob... something) or anything. It works
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Magicmaven Inner circle 1235 Posts |
When one uses the pass, the spectator thinks he/she knows where the card is. If you use a shuffle, or a cut or a series of shuffles and cuts, the spectator now doesn't know where the card is. It is much stronger when they know where the card is.
The pass is difficult yes, but very useful. Additionally, a side steal or something equivelant is also worth learning I think. It displaces one card instead of an entire block of cards.
rmaxgoodwin.com
https://rmaxgoodwin.com/ |
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David Nelson Elite user San Mateo, CA 404 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-17 19:37, Memory-Jah wrote: Memory-Jah You seem to think that a pass can be made invisible by doing a covering motion. This reinforces my initial point that there is no truly invisible pass. A pass can be made to go unnoticed, creating the illusion of invisibility, by using a covering motion or misdirection or a number of other techniques but that doesn't make it invisible. Searching for those methods of making a pass invisible gives valuable practicing in learning to make one's moves more hidden and feel more natural so as to pass unnoticed by the audience. I've seen Derek Dingle do his pass, I've seen Kaufman do the pass, I've seen Steven Youell do his pass, I've seen Bruce Cervon do multiple passes, I've seen Howie Schwarzman– who does the best pass I've ever seen– do the pass and I've seen countless others use various methods to transpose two halves of the deck. None of these passes have been truly invisible but the best versions all use a combination of speed, timing, covering actions, misdirection, technical skill and smart thinking to bring them as close to perfection as possible. Anyone who says the pass can be invisible and goes into a list of covering actions or misdirection has immediately invalidated their point. An invisible pass is like achieving perfection, it's IMPOSSIBLE which is why we try so hard to achieve it. I'm a just an amateur magician who has an opinion based on having seen some of the best in the world do the pass. If you want someone with a stronger reputation then look at Mike Ammar's website in which he explains why he feels the pass isn't useful. The difference between him and me is that I believe the pass can still be valuable even if it can never be perfect and I believe that attempting to overcome the problems of the pass is valuable magical homework. At first one learns the technique which gives technical skill and physical dexterity. Then one focuses on thinking critically about the move which gives insights into how to construct routines to choreograph moves to give them better cover. Finally, one thinks about how to properly misdirect or psychologically cover the move to prevent it from even registering with the audience. Dave |
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Larry Barnowsky Inner circle Cooperstown, NY where bats are made from 4770 Posts |
I agree with Dave Nelson. The pass can look invisible for the one viewer directly in front of the performer. It can look great on video which is monocular. In real world performing situations where people have stereo vision and are on all sides of you, the angles are not kind to the pass. Erdnase knew it couldn't be hidden at the card table. Dropping your pants while you set off flash paper may allow your pass to go undetected, but it's still not invisible.
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
That is a classic line Larry ...drop your pants and light flash paper ...lol
Mobius |
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Review King Eternal Order 14446 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-01-17 21:34, Larry Barnowsky wrote: This should be put in a book on the Pass. Brilliant!!
"Of all words of tongue and pen,
the saddest are, "It might have been" ..........John Greenleaf Whittier |
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JasonEngland V.I.P. Las Vegas, NV 1728 Posts |
If "invisible" is defined as "unseeable" then not only are there no invisible passes, but there are no invisible moves at all!
Every move that I can think of has some quality that allows me to visually distinguish it from the "real" action that it's trying to emulate. I've seen the best second deals, the best bottom deals, the best double lifts, the best Elmsley counts, the best side steals, etc. In virtually all cases, I can "see" that a move is taking place. Therefore, I submit that this isn't a very good definition of "invisible" for magical purposes. I prefer "unseen." And in this sense, there are dozens of moves that are functionally invisible (if performed correctly) in the repertoires of magicians all over the world. This includes passes. Incidentally, if you use the first definition, then I agree there are no passes that are structurally invisible, but there are conditions that allow for the occasional invisible pass. By that I mean a pass that would fool even a practiced eye. Castle lighting is famous for allowing these types of moves, but you needn't travel all the way to California for that. Restaurants and hospitality suites are often dark enough to make certain moves invisible even in the first, more technical sense of the word. Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
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TheAmbitiousCard Eternal Order Northern California 13425 Posts |
Nice thoughts, David.
Thanks for putting in the time to write.
www.theambitiouscard.com Hand Crafted Magic
Trophy Husband, Father of the Year Candidate, Chippendale's Dancer applicant, Unofficial World Record Holder. |
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markiquark Regular user 185 Posts |
Wow. so many answers and some almost like little intellectual essays. I want to thank everybody for contributing, especially david nelson, but found all the opinions here very valuable.
If you are going to Puerto Vallarta on your acations, let me know and write me a PM. I am interested in meeting magicians.
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DomKabala Inner circle I've grown old after diggin' holes for 2827 Posts |
Look at it this way...The pass is a means to an end, but it's not the end in itself.
:bikes: <<<KRaZy4kardz>>>
We don't stop playing when we grow old...we grow old when we stop playing.
God is enough, let go, let God. Gal 2:20 "Anything of value is not easily attained and those things which are easily attained are not of lasting value." |
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