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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Actually more and more among laymen they are becoming a joke.
THEY know of the use of the stooges. They have figured it out and are not happy. Look at Blaines last special. Not too much talk outside of the magic boards. Criss is declining fast in popularity, what popularity he even had. Your saying that nobody who has had a magic TV special can be critical? Can nobody who has made a movie be a critic? Can't we dislike it without it being a contest of who has been on TV? That dosn't pass the giggle test.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Sandwichical Regular user Phoenix 134 Posts |
Not true. I got a hair cut about a week ago, the lady cutting my hair talked quite a bit about criss. Then that evening, my supervisor was begging to know what happened to the elephant. Then later that night, my supervisor's boyfriend was talking all about Angel. I have not seen much of a slow in popularity. But people are catching on to the stooges.
-Sandwich
To defy the laws of tradition is a crusade only of the brave.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
WEll the ratings are showing a slow in popularity.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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LBP MAGIC Veteran user 374 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-06 10:56, Dannydoyle wrote: In TV what else matters? Does not matter how many barbers and friends like Criss if the TV rating don't like him he will be gone! |
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ChrixF New user 54 Posts |
Personaly, I like most of what Criss Angel does. Criss is my biggest inspiration, when he was performing on stage and even now while he does street magic. I have to admit, his first season was mainly stunts and escapes, it wasn't all that good, but his second season is a lot better since he brings "old" tricks to the streets,something we don't see very often.
Sandwichical raises a good point when he says: "So often I hear magicians bashing guys like Criss and Blaine. But hey, look at them. They are out performing! They are on TV. How often do people who know you're into magic mention one of their names?" I suppose Criss and Blaine worked hard to get where they're at now. (No disrespect to all other hard working magicians here.) Chrix |
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Edward New user Denver, North Carolina 14 Posts |
As magicians we all think differently than most people. When we watch Criss do his tricks we don't sit there and prepare to be amazed; we prepare to try and figure out what he is about to do. It is instinct for us to do that. A lot of people are bashing him for his use of stooges, looks, presentation, Etc. When the fact of the matter is: it is on TV and the way laypeople perceive it is how I wish I could sometimes perceive it. At times I get sick of friends saying stuff like, "but can you float from a building to another" I just laugh and say I wish. Most of my friends don't even think about the idea of a stooge. They take it for what it is worth. I have personally met him and watched one of his tapings and all the tricks I saw required no stooges and he did an awesome job executing them as well. Awesome guy, down to earth, and while a lot of people sit there and complain about him, he just sits back and laughs while he is the one making the money and receiving the "magician of the year" award for the third time. I know he uses stooges but try and keep it on the forum. I pretend to be just as amazed as everyone else because I don't want to ruin there view of "Magic".
Edward
Edward
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspZgshY7......20Blaine
Opps, Here is the right one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HXPjrpWC......20Blaine What does it matter if they get people interested in magic??? Mobius |
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SeanScottMagic Veteran user 325 Posts |
There's something I'd like to ask because it doesn't seem to be brought up. Why does one magician need to duplicate the approach of another? Given if you go back far enough you'll find a particular style. One example are the tv specials I've seen in the last 5 years from Copperfield, Angel & Blaine. David Blaine kind of creates a little revival of tv street magic, which kind of created a calling card. Then I see Copperfield and Blaine doing things outside in their tv specials, following Blaine's airdates. C'mon, have any of us really seen Copperfield taking to the streets in all of 15+ years of tv specials? Angel same thing, but not as much previously done. Then Copperfield & Angel start doing illusions outside,like levitation. What's amazing to me is this is David Copperfield, the magician that should not be following anyone. Of course in the eyes of the public. I remember Angel having a cool look to his stage show and a great sub-trunk. Angel & Copperfield were doing the right thing before Blaine came along, so why do they derail after Blaine? Just a small observation. Anyone else think the same or different?
Thanks, Sean
http://WWW.THEARTOFSEANSCOTT.COM
AVAILABLE EFFECTS: ROAMING RISE RENDER MODOSU FACTORY LINE BANDARIZUMU KI MXL |
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Danik1 Regular user Saint-Eustache, Canada 184 Posts |
Think and say what you want about him, but the guy does great magic. Sure it's not for everyone, sure it is NOT your classic magic guy, but hell, were not in the 30's anymore. The guy as a series on TV (Mindfreak). The guy as a great stage act. The guy does thousands and thousands of dollars wich WE DON'T. The guy takes his magic to the street to your average people as well as on a stage in a running show. HE MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT !!!
My opinion is that Criss Angel is a great Performer. He took magic to another level with a different style. He's an artist and it shows in his presentation. So what if his technique is not perfect on every effect he does ... It still works with laymen, that's the important thing. He's entertaining, he performs well at what he does ... Good for him! If you don't like his style and prefer more classic styles like Tommy Wonder, Bill Malone, Richard Osterlind, etc. that's also fine with me. Those guys are legends!!! The fact is that their all great in the style they have ... so does Criss Angel. |
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Will Eefting New user Southwest Michigan 93 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-04 13:07, Dannydoyle wrote: I don't worship him, lol, I just said he was a heck of a performer, nothing more, his live show is good, have you seen it? Since I started getting back into magic, more and more, I am beginning to understand this bitter feeling towards Angel/Blaine/Copperfield, etc. and I apologise if my post offended anyone. I didn't mean it to. I like him, he's not the best magician ever, by any standard, but I like him. Perhaps that is what I should have said in the first place.
A Trick? Well yes there are quite a few "tricks" I can do, but alas there are women and children present. Find me later.
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Piz Inner circle Chicago, IL 1351 Posts |
Criss angel is bringing a kind of magic to us all that none of us has ever seen . He is modernizing our art form,and the longer his show is on tv, the more effects his team and him dream up, means the more likely that his older effects will be released to us magicians. Stop bashing the man, cause the first people who will be in line to purchase these effects will be the same people that are bashing him. And for you people who claim he uses all these stooges,you are all just being ignorant to your selfs. Im sure he uses stooges every now and then,but who's to say what tricks he is useing them on and which one's he ain't,no one knows. I fully agree with everything criss says in his interview (can be found on the other thread) where he stats that other magicians bash him saying he uses stooges and camera tricks just because thay can't figure out them selfs how he did what he did, so in there minds the only option remaining is to bash him saying "that had to be a camera trick", or he obviouslly used a stooge. Remember,the man has millions in cash, and like he says he uses technology to his advantage. How does he float so darn high is the middle of a crowded vagas street? Obviously our first instinct is that he used stooges for the reactions, and had something above him suspending him in the air. Well for all we know he could of had a million dollar peace of equipment straped to his body that made the effect possible,who the heck knows. People, just please stop stating these ignorant *** remarks, because no one knows what he uses and what he does not use to make an effect possible. The man does have money and I'm sure he would not hesitate to drop 10s of thousands of dollars into an effect to achieve his goal, I know I would if I had that kind of cash. Thank you. P.S.-Sorry if I sounded to be a little on the blunt side, but some of the remarks I read just ticked me off. Thanks again. "PIZ"
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Well speaking of ignorant remarks. Lets bread that down shall we?
First off I don't care HOW much money you have you can not make something invisible. Gawd you guys with hero worship really kill me. Modernising our art? If by this you mean removing skill from it, not knowing how to pronounce words, taking cheap shots at magicians and mimicking things he has seen others do and claiming originality, bad news for you kid, it has all been done before. I have to make a couple points. First off, Criss has created a whole new charector for the public to latch onto if they want. They are not really in large numbers for that "goth" thing really isn't mainstream, but lets just say he is himself and nobody else. THAT is a good thing and something we can learn from. Also as far as stooges before we debate that further, lets examine the word. I had a discussion with some people the other day and it is worth mentioning. A stooge is a person from the audience who automatically knows how a particular trick works. They are in on it. They are told "react when I do this" and they do. An "assistant" is one who works on stage with the performer. Now blur the line between stooge and assistant. Put the assistant in the audience and claim an audience member. Is this a stooge or an assistant? I have to admit it was a point I never considered. Now there are many tricks he does, which his camp says is NOT true, that I simply think that everyone knows how they are done. A difference of opinion. BUT I can indeed see the point of an "assistant in the audience" if you will. Copperfield does it all the time. BUT my problem is that Criss insults the audience intelligence with some of his claims. I always liked the clowns from Cirque de Solei. Almost every time they use someone from the audience. USUALLY it is a clown sitting in street cloths. It takes you about 1/2, usually more before you cop to the fact it is another performer. It is fun. NOBODY cries foul. Now Criss dosn't use them in this fashion. He still wants you to believe his nonsense which is where I have the problem. The whole "I am gonna levitate a complete stranger in the park surrounded". Blaaaaa makes me sick. Anyhow one more point. Often Criss will do tricks and they will cut out the set up. Forcing a card on someone and having them "think of the card" but NOT showing the force. Is this stooging? Well no it is indeed not. I happen to think it is a crappy way to do magic, but it is not stooging in any way. So lets stop the hero worship about him changing magic, because when it gets right down to it, he is vanishing an elephant. Didn't Houdini do that? He is doing the sawing, hmmmmmmm seen that before? Card through window, didn't BLAINE do that one? The stunt man things, hmmmm where have I seen this idea? So no more nonsense about changing magic, original illusions. Oh and by the way to our last poster, the illusions you speak of are already available. Contact a builder with a cashiers check. There are about 6 principals in stage illusions. Not really too tough to figure what is going on behind the curtain. I for one will NOT be in line for any tricks as I havn't bought one yet and don't see this pushing me over the edge. You see I am my own performer. Go ahead buy the tricks and be a clone, which is exactly what Criss reels against.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Marvello Inner circle It's amazing how little I can say in 1612 Posts |
I was not very impressed with the show where he produced doves from "spectators" purses, etc. and then let them fly away. I am sure they did not last long in the Las Vegas desert before they became hawk food, or some similar fate. Not a nice way to treat your bird assistants. And then at the end of the show they claimed "no animals were harmed in the making of this show." They should have added "... that we know of."
Never criticize someone else until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes.
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-=Ralph=- Regular user New York 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-27 10:04, Dannydoyle wrote: Well said! Criss has become a special effects man and not a magician. I hate the fact that we have magicians out there defending this guy. The old school guys are probably biting there tongue watching this guy take all of the skill out of magic. What message is he sending out to the kids/ future magicians? I tell you what... he is pretty much saying don't bother practicing your illusions when all you have to do is get yourself a TV show and use camera edits. I am not so naive as to not know that Criss has talent but I can't for the life of me understand why he isn't using much of it. |
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the levitator Special user Spellbound Productions 546 Posts |
I want to preface my post to say that my post has nothing in particular to do with anything posted in this particular thread. My post is a culmination of reading dozens of posts in dozens of threads on several forums. This post is not directed at anyone in particular here at the Café, nor is it meant to put down those who have a different view than I have.
I'm certainly not going to defend Criss, he's more than capable of doing that should he choose to. That said I think it's a little oversimplified to say things like "all you have to do is get yourself a TV show and use camera edits". (I'm not picking on the original poster of this comment, becauwe it's been made tens of times by different people on many different threads. I'm only using it as an example of how we as a group tend to oversimplify things.) It seems that many magicians have no idea what it really takes to get on television, especially to the level that Criss has. I'm not just talking about the work involved with producing so many specials under such a tight timeline. It takes a lot of time and effort to gain enough credibility to even think about approaching the TV Gods for acceptance into their world. It takes a great amount of work by dozens of people behind the scenes to put it all together. It takes a great amount of luck to be the right kind of act at the right time to get noticed enough to even have a shot. It takes a great amount of sacrifice because to get your show on television you will have to give up some control of it because its the newtwork's money and they will make decisions based on what's best for them, not necessarily you. At their peak, many of our best modern magicians have been lucky just to land a special or two. Getting magic on TV is HARD. Getting it on there as a weekly special for 3 seasons is nothing short of a miracle. I admit to being a fan of his, but if you check my post history here at the Café, I've been a fan of his since around 1997, before his appearance on that TLC program hosted by Lance Burton (sorry, forgetting the name of it at the moment). Some people forget that he had an extremely successful stage show long before he was a "TV Star". He came up like most other great magicians, working his way up the entertainment food chain. It seems to me that many of the guys most of you respect are trying really hard to help Criss put his best foot forward and create an entertaining show. It's not designed to be entertaining to us, but entertaining to the demographic that A&E is targetting. Criss is doing the same thing every other magician who gets on TV tries to do, to give the home audience the same experience they would have if they were really there. We have all been taught about the "unblinking eye" of TV and how some effects have to be presented differently if you want to give the viewer the same type of experience as the spectator. Does Criss use stooges? Probably, just like just about every major magician who's ever performed, especially on television. Does Criss use editing to accomplish effects? Maybe for the viewing audience, but he does perform his effects in front of real people. He wasn't created by a TV scientist in a lab. He's been doing his thing for a long time and paid his dues. It seems to me that there is a lot of rampant jealousy for his success. When I read magicians targetting his methods and personal style it just sounds a little like sour grapes to me. Especially since most of the sniping is conjecture at best. I think Criss is an accomplished, unique performer. While I may not agree with every effect presented in the way he does it, it's HIS show. He has the right to present himself however he wishes. He's doing a heck a lot more with his career than I am, so I would feel a bit like a heel to throw stones at him. I feel the same way about successful magicians who have a performance style that doesn't appeal to me. I don't poke fun at other magicians or try to publicly tear them down because I don't like them or their style, because I wouldn't want someone doing that to me. If you don't like a particular magician, fine. I don't like beets, but I'm not screaming on the internet about it. I wish that we as an artistic community had more respect for those who are innovative and successful in our brotherhood. If we as a community spent more time discussing what we like about each other instead of what we don't like about each other, I believe we would all be better entertainers as a result. We can never expect the public to fully respect us as a legitmate and beautiful artform when we don't even respect each other. I think the easy path is to find fault with other performers. Take an honest look at your own act! How many people here in the Café would have the guts to allow their performances to be broadcast on national TV for the relentless scrutiny of your peers? Very very few, if people are honest with themselves. I find things daily with myself that I change to make my performance the best it can be. If lightning struck today and I got an offer to do a TV show, I would seriously have to pass on it, because I don't believe I've developed my show to the point that I would want it displayed to the masses. And I'm a darn good performer!! I make good money doing what I'm doing and have a great area following. I've performed my stage show to groups of over 2,000 people. I perform effects that are considered risky and I have unique presentations for my effects. All of that said, I still am honest enough with myself to know that I still have work to do before I could ever consider national exposure. I believe that many in our community fool themselves into thinking "I could do better than Criss, no problem." That's easy to say when you know in your heart you don't have a chance in Hades of ever having to put your money where your mouth is. I would love to see the look on those faces if someone were to suddenly thrust them into the spotlight to perform at the level people like Angel, Burton, Copperfield, and others do. I would like to see those people gather the resources and assistance necessary to garner a 3 season show. I would like to see those people perform and excel under extremely tight time deadlines and network pressure to "make adjustments" to your ideas on the fly. What do I like about Criss? He's a unique solid performer who has earned the life many of us can only dream of. He is contributing to our art by helping to maintain it in the mainstream eye and the topic of normal converstation. I also like that he doesn't justify himself to anyone but himself. Do I find aspects of his show a little over the top? Of course. But the only way you can get on TV nowadays is to be over the top. Anyone who thinks some of those aspects weren't designed by the networks are pretty naive. I would be willing to bet that the whole family involvement and over worrying was a network idea to make things more dramatic. Even overdone, it is an entertaining gimmick and it does what it's intended to do to many who watch. I know that nothing I have to say really matters, and magicians will keep bashing guys like Criss because of his hair, his methods, his family or anything else they can think of. I just think it's only fair that those who dissect other performers should be required to open themselves to the same scrutiny. Just add a link to your performances with your critiques and show guys like Criss how it's really supposed to be done. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Well first off Criss does in no way have a mainstream audience so forget that.
Second as for "brotherhood" well Criss really seems to have a problem on his end with that. Exposure alienates "brothers", interviews on radio bashing other magicians in PUBLIC, acting superior, alienates "brothers" don't you think? See when he does things like that in PUBLIC, not on a obscure message board on the internet with OTHER MAGICINAS only reading really, then he deserves what he gets. Gotta say the bashing is earned on his part if you ask me. You ascribe intent to others. You have no way of knowing. But what the heck, you are star struck so go for it. Honest critical thought is not a bad thing. Is it wrong to discuss and be critical? Is it only happy posts that have to be put up? What kind of world do you live in?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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the levitator Special user Spellbound Productions 546 Posts |
Congrats on another personal attack Danny. Done with style as usual.
If you can't tell the difference between honest criticism and cheap shots, then maybe you have a bigger problem than mine of being "star struck". Just because I admire a performer doesn't make me star struck. But in your black and white world, I guess I just don't fit in. I live in a world full of jerks and imperfect people, as people like you confirm for me on a daily basis. I'm not calling you a jerk, but you are pretty consistent with trying to point out the jerk behaviour and shortcomings of others around here. I'm not blind to reality. That doesn't mean that I can't share my opinion of trying to be a little nicer to each other. There's nothing wrong with criticism. Like all things, in moderation, it can be a good thing. I just think it would be nice if people could throw each other a bone every now and then and try to find something good in the stuff they don't like, as miniscule as it may be. Mainstream, in the eyes of Television, is exactly the demographic A&E is targetting with Criss's show. Look at the commercials that run, targeted towards that 18-35 group of pop culture. It may not be mainstream in your eyes, but it's not your TV station and it's not your show. Most of the people who have engaged me in conversations about Criss would definitely be considered "mainstream". I've been approached by businessmen, conservative housewives, tattooed freaks, and everything in between. Who knows, maybe Criss will start reading all of these posts and do what he can to correct himself and get his career out of the toilet. After all, everyone here is just trying to help, right? Just a little refresher on "Constructive Criticism", in case anyone's a little rusty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructive_criticism |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-27 12:42, Dannydoyle wrote: Where is the personal attack? I point out how Criss is publically critical and mean spirited about magicians. Not an attack a fact by the way. And that he gets it back is probably to be expected. Then say that we can't only have happy posts in the real world. Not really an attack per se but ok.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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-=Ralph=- Regular user New York 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-27 12:28, the levitator wrote: I grew up on Long Island New York where Criss used to perform freequently. He and I are around the same age and I watched him go from performing at clubs when we were both kids to being a successful Magician. I know what he is capable of doing and I am having a hard time with some of the choices that he is making especially between him bashing other magicians, claiming that he was the only person to do an illusion when it is just untrue, overusing stooges and blatent use of camera tricks. I am a fan of his stage show but as long as he uses questionable methods for his TV show, I have the absolute right to call attention to it. Another thing that you need to take into consideration is that I DO KNOW what it takes to make a show. My cousin works as a special effects man in movies and TV and I have seen what it takes to make a quality show/movie first hand and there is MORE then enough magic tricks or illusions that he could perform legitamately. I am also a part time perfessional musician so I know a thing or to about the demands of putting a show together. I totally respect your opinion and know that you are a fan but Criss is bringing on a lot of critism himself by being dishonest. There are also more then a few PROFESSIONAL big named magicians that have a major BEEF with Criss but they are being total gentleman about the situation by remaining silent. |
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jynx Loyal user Pueblo, Colorado 242 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-27 12:28, the levitator wrote: Levitator, I agree with everything you said. Nice post and well said!! |
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