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Piz Inner circle Chicago, IL 1351 Posts |
Levitator,well said, I agree also. Take care. "PIZ"
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Dave V Inner circle Las Vegas, NV 4824 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-27 11:11, Marvello wrote: I'm not going to get in the middle of this endless debate except for this one point: The doves Criss uses are the same kind wedding planners use for "dove releases" at the end of wedding ceremonies. They are trained to fly back to their roost, where they rest confortably awaiting the next wedding gig. This happens many times a day in this city. Besides, when was the last time you saw a hawk in downtown Las Vegas that wasn't part of a show???
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
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the levitator Special user Spellbound Productions 546 Posts |
I appreciate the support and it's nice to know I'm not alone in my view. For the last time, I don't worship Criss Angel. The world is not black and white. It's entirely possible to admire and respect someone without worshipping them. I don't agree with every single thing Criss or any other magician in the world does for that matter. My point is just that "constructive criticism" usually involves a combination of positive and negative feedback with the intent of helping that person improve. How many "insert current famous magician's name here" bashers both include positive feedback and do it all with the intention of trying to help their fellow performer? AGAIN, I'm not speaking to anyone on this thread in particular nor do I mean to implicate any post on this thread. Just making sure I'm being clear about everything so as not to be misunderstood.
I know that there are tons of internet cowards in the world, who pick and prod at people without the ability to put their money where their mouths are. I also know that most of the magicians who rip on other more famous than them would NEVER allow themselves to fall under the same scrutiny. I guess I'm just saying the same thing I say on the musician boards I frequent; "Put up or shut up!" If you (meant collectively) aren't willing to put yourself (meant collectively) under the same microscope that truly successful performers are constantly under, why say anything? Do you (meant collectively) highlight other performers faults in the hopes that they will read it, absorb your (meant collectively) all-knowing perspective and change what they do for you (meant collectively)? If you (meant collectively) truly want to respect this artform start with respecting the others in it. People can cry all they want about Criss bashing other magicians. The term bashing is thrown around pretty loosely too. Please, like he is the first famous magician to do that! At least Criss is putting some of his idols and peers into some of his limelight. How many famous magicians in the last 20 years have not only enlisted the assistance of more than a half dozen well respected magicians but also shared their airtime with them and helped to give them recognition? Disagree with Criss's tactics all you like, but I don't see any of them as groundbreaking or original. And in regards to stooging and camera stuff, only his staff of well respected consultants know for sure. I'll take their word over the conjecture of television specatators any day. I hope that I have been clear enough that I'm not pointing my finger at anyone with this post. I have gone to great lengths to assure that it is obvious that I'm speaking in general terms and not singling anyone out. I just think that unbalanced ripping and bashing says a lot more about the person doing the bashing than it does the person being bashed. Criss's bashing, if you can call it that, is a publicity ploy used by all kinds of entertainers throughout history. I've watched almost everything he's put on TV and haven't heard anything so rude as to be considered bashing. Could someone please list some quotes? From my perspective, bashing seems to be an out of context word. I focus on the performance when I watch another magician perform, so it's very possible that I missed this rampant bashing. Some quotes or details on which episodes or interviews this bashing Criss is doing would help me to gain a more balanced perspective on that issue in particular. Dave's right, this is an endless debate that I really shouldn't have let myself get sucked into. I think I've made my viewpoint known and I'm happy to talk about it more through PM's or email or even phone. I don't use a fake name or avatar, so I'm pretty easy to reach if anyone wants to yak some more about this in "virtual" person. Have a good one everyone! James |
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-=Ralph=- Regular user New York 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-28 00:13, the levitator wrote: You have a knack for writing, I will give you that ,but some of the negative things that were said about criss are true and the people who have spoken negatively about Criss hold just as much merrit as anything that you have said. I won't try to **** you off, that is not what I do ,but I can say with 100% certainty that you have missed a lot. Angels show is FULL of Stooges and camera tricks and a person with a trained eye does not need to ask the camera crue or any of the consultants. Why don't you do some research on how Angel treated Wayne Houchin..Try doing some research on what Danny garcia had to say about Angel. Try doing some research about what Justin Miller had to say about Angels treatment of Wayne houchin. Try listening to the radio podcast from Penn's radio show where Angel continues to bash Blaine. Watch some of Angels shows again where he states that no one has ever done a specific illusion when people clearly have. Watch the episode when Angel says that he does the mesomorphosis the fastest out of any performer... when it is a fact that the Pendragons hold the world record. I have no problem with you having your opinion but many other people have theirs. I'm also on many music forums and I hear the put up or shut routine as well, so I gave you some food for thought. I gave you some referances and now it is up to you do some research or you can accept why some people might have a problem with Criss' show or with some of the things that he says in general. I think the guy is a brilliant performer with some great ideas when it comes to his stage work but I am not fond of the TV series and the methods that he uses to create most of his illusions. |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
We gospel magicians just realized that Criss is a Satanist....if you read The Good News section you would know that. So there.
Steve V |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Yea the put up or shut up routine pretty much dosn't work in America anyhow. I looked it up, turns out that there is an entire ammendment about "Freedom of Speech" as they so laughingly call it. Actually it is one of the top 10.
Besides simply not having a TV show does NOT in any way disquailify you as to knowing if one is bad. I have never done a cooking show, or a sit com, but was pretty darn sure the Emeril show was gonna suck. Guess what? IT DID. The arguement put up or shut up is usually used as a last resort. All logic has been used up so then "put up or shut up". Almost right before "I'll get you at recess". Funny though what set him off was me originally. And I was actually pointing things out in defense of Criss. A different way to look at stooging. BUT oddly enough when you start attacking and the endless mindless debate instead of the issue raised, it gets glossed over. If Levitator would have answered my points, instead of the "way they were stated" lots could be avoided.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Josh Riel Inner circle of hell 1995 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-28 03:01, Steve V wrote: Well, at least he has ONE redeeming quality.
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
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Lee Darrow V.I.P. Chicago, IL USA 3588 Posts |
The following is a personal opinion only and is not to be construed as being representative of any organization to which I may or may not belong:
Gentlebeings, say what you want about Mr. Angel. Criticize all you want. But when YOU, each and individually as well as collectivelly, have done as much FOR magic as he has through his TV show, his off-Broadway shows and his publicity stunts in places like Times Square, then your footing as far as what YOU have ACCOMPLISHED at least, will be equal to his. This does not say that those who have not achieved cannot criticize - FAR from it! But let's get a little perspective going here. How much credibility does a guy who has no presence except on the internet have in the PUBLIC'S eyes, when compared to someone like Mr. Angel? Answer: Probably not a heck of a lot. How much credibility IN THE PUBLIC'S EYE does someone who performs nothing but kid's shows once each month at their local church pancake breakfast have when compared to a guy who made $4 million gross in an off-Broadway show and went on to score a regular TV series on A&E? Answer: Probably not a heck of a lot. People, this is a tempest in something smaller than a teapot. It's worse than paint mixers arguing over who makes the best cerulian blue acrylic paint! And it's almost as bad as arguing over who does the best card flourishes - some handy guy or some handy dude! Let's face it - WE don't MAKE THE decision about Chriss Angel's legacy in history - the PUBLIC history (the one that really matters to the WORLD, not just other magicians!) - that job is for the public. Love him or hate him, enjoy his work or hate it - one thing that he HAS done is drum up INTEREST IN MAGIC IN THE PUBLIC AT LARGE! And folks - THAT is something that benefits us ALL! So, as my dear, departed Daddy used to say - "Get with the &*^%# program! It's working FOR you so make hay while the sun shines!" Translation: "Mr. Angel has drummed up a LOT of interest in magic and magicians - which is helpful to ALL of our magical careers - so go out there and cash IN on that interest!" Sheesh, do I have to point out everything to you guys?! Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!" |
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Red Shadow Inner circle 1788 Posts |
I work for tv, and its one thing to use the occasionly stooge to ensure the effect works the way it should. But when he had his hynotism episodes, and he made the entire resturant fall asleep in mere seconds. That was the last straw. He was using stooges 'AS' the trick. It was no-longer abount them enhancing his magic, they were his only trick.
And the problem other magicians have, is that we are compared to him by the public. They ask us to repeat the effects he does, and because they use trick photography (vanishing episode) and stooges, they cannot be done. Its one thing for a magician to trick the audience with magic, but to trick the auidence with stooges is an outright lie to his supposable profession. ku7uk http://www.magicmystery.co.uk/bodytricks.htm |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
WEll using stooges is a time honered method sorry can't really argue that with you.
Lee yea I don't think anyone has debated his usefullness to the art. I have personally mentioned it several times in this thread alone I believe. NOT the point now is it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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-=Ralph=- Regular user New York 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-29 07:42, Lee Darrow wrote: Lee, I appreciate your optimism... truly I do, but I think that your a missing the point...a HUGE point. Criss is not bringing magic to the forefront, he is bringing camera tricks and special effects to the forefront. Ask any legitimate street performer/magician how many times a day he or she is asked to levitate from a building or dissapear in public or walk on water etc etc. It puts the street perform in a weird place where he or she will have to make up some BS patter in order to defuse the situation. It will also make them seem like a HACK in the spectators eyes. You can try an keep everything rosy but Im not buying it. Also, have you thought about the up and comming young magicians and what they will now have to do in order to get recognized? Because of what guys like Angel have done with there editing It almost guarantees that the up an commers will have to resort to the same tactics in order to one up him so to speaks. I wont even get into your analogy of him having a TV show. I am a professional musician and I hear the same thing about signed musicians vs people who aren't and it is a BS argument. BTW I'm just giving you my opinion and I'm not trying to be harsh! Ralph |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
All that talent and still nothing could be done to make Vince Neals wife look human.
Steve V |
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-=Ralph=- Regular user New York 111 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-07-29 12:32, Steve V wrote: Now that was funny!!! |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
I saw where Vince Neal from Motley Crew had a hip replacement.
Which marked the first time in 15 years the words "hip" and "Motley Crew" were actually used in the same sentence. Posted: Jul 29, 2006 3:26pm Thanks I'll be here all week try the Veal. Posted: Jul 29, 2006 4:15pm People made the same arguements for Blaine. "Keeping magic in the public eye" and yada yada yada. How does the public think of him now, especially after his last special? "You know, that guy who will do anything just to be on TV?" is generally how he is thought of. He is remembered more for his fantastic bordome, and his failures, than for any magic he did. Ask them what tricks he ever did. Block of ice, and the stunts, NOT the magic. Is that a good way to keep magic in the public eye?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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rmoraleta Special user Philippines 767 Posts |
I like Criss Angel. In my opinion he is more proficient than Blaine as a Magician/Illusionist. There is art in what he does that appeals to me.
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Mobius303 Inner circle Lakewood, Ohio 1309 Posts |
After reading this thread and thinking ..yes thinking quite a bit, I went back and watched video of several specials.
Let me begin by saying at least all these guys got on TV...that says something about their skill to begin with. Blaine has been an influence more than many realize. He influenced David Copperfield to put some street magic illusions in one of his last specials...interesting. Blaine no longer does the magic that made him famous ...he was so out of practice for the last special it took Months to get him back to do what little magic made it to the show and the show was all about the stunt he was doing not at all about the magic. Blaine's Stunts must have had an effect on Chris because his entire first season was more about stunts than the magic ...ewww some big deal....he got the second season and now is doing more "magic" and less stunts ...he learned what his audience liked more. Now Straight street magic specials like THEM and Mondo Magic apperently didn't sell. Too bad there was some really cool magic on those special shows. I enjoyed them more than Angel or Blaine. The bottom line is that people enjoy watching magic and magicians enjoy it too but it doesn't make much money for the TV stations. Therefore we don't have the specials like we used to. Lance had annual specials, Harry Anderson did several....they don't even show them in reruns now. Why? is the magic on those specials old?? No it is not. I wouldn't fret over what some other guys are doing on TV because the power of your magic lies with you not some guy on TV. The death of all kinds of magic has been bandies about for as long as magic has been around. Max Maven even wrote a book about what was said throughout Dai Vernon's lifetime ...magic is still here in all it's many forms somewhere. Keep up the debates and talking but in the overall scheme of things you are what makes the magic and that should always be remembered. Later, Mobius Click here to view attached image. |
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the levitator Special user Spellbound Productions 546 Posts |
Actually Danny, it wasn't really going after you in particular, it was the culmination of reading a bunch of posts on a bunch of threads on a bunch of forums. Anyways, I told you through PM's that I agreed with most of of you say most of the time and that I was speaking in generalities and not at anyone in particular but I see you still felt the need to "set the record straight" with me publicly.
I guess I haven't been clear enough in all of this so I'm going to have to be even MORE specific. I NEVER said he doesn't use stooges or editing to enhance his effects. I agree that both are used and probably more than perhaps some other performers would use them. My point was simply that most armchair quarterbacks either blow it out of proportion out of jealosy or they just can't come up with any other solution. It just doesn't matter to me personally becuse his use of stooges and edits don't affect my performance or my bank account in any way. I NEVER said that only people who have TV shows can critique people with TV shows. I only wanted to point out what most of those opinions are really worth. It's easy to sit on the sidelines without knowing what it takes to put together a deal that gets a magician a 3 season series. It's easy to sit around and complain about what that entertainer is doing wrong and what we could do better. What's hard is putting the ego away, congratulating the guy and figuring out how to improve our own show to make it even better. There are plenty of "musicians" who whine and minimize the "put up or shut up" philosophy, as they should. They are usually the ones who can't play well. I can't tell you how many self-proclaimed "great" drummers I've run into at open jams in their Zildjian jackets and Tama sunglasses who couldn't get through a simple 12 bar progression without throwing everyone else off and don't know a flam from a paradiddle. They are almost without exception the same ones who sit and pick apart famous and accomplished drummers. All you have to do to shut most of these people up is hand them a pair of sticks, or just sit down and play your butt off. "Put up or shut up" has nothing to do with the freedom of speech. I don't even know how the 2 are related. If someone loudmouth wannabe drummer is shooting his mouth off and criticising really talented professional drummers and I hand them a pair of sticks, they can choose to keep running their mouths. That is their right. I have the right to walk away and ignore them. I also have the right to get up there and play my heart out. "Put up or shut up" is simply one person's way of saying, "hey, instead of talking smack why don't you show us how to be better?" That person has the right to decline as they would probably just make a bigger fool out of themselves than they have by running their mouth. It's not a commandment. It's a suggestion to be productive and not destructive. "Put up or shut up" is an acceptable way to approach personal improvement. Personally, I would rather be viewed as the guy who grabbed the sticks and jumped on stage to my my heart out, than the loudmouth in the corner who has all the answers on how everyone else can be better and doesn't have the guts to back up their free speech. And once again, this isn't directed at anyone in particular. But I do seem to see the same type of magicians from time to time that remind of the poser musicians I run into who can't keep time in a straight blues shuffle, but have all of the answers on how the rest of the world's drummers could be better. Some talk, some do. Different strokes for different folks I guess. People can use their free speech all they want. Having the freedom to say something doesn't give it any credibility though. And Ralph, I appreciate the specific references and while I plan to do some reading on the subject, it's not really going to change how I feel about what I'm talking about. As far as the magicians who sold their ideas to Criss, they are big boys that weren't held at gunpoint to do so. On top of that, all the creators you mentioned are hugely talented individuals that aren't going to be hurt professionally by Criss treating them badly. I've heard a lot of people in the entertainment world theorize that the whole thing between Blaine and Angel was cooked up by the 2 of them consciously or subconsciously to bolster their specials and create that good old fashioned rivalry that boosts interest in both performers. And it seems to me that Blaine is doing just fine and doesn't seem too worse for wear with the Angel "attacks". I'm not saying that what Criss may have done to these people is right ethically, I'm just trying to keep it in perspective. If Criss went so far as to do things that could negatively affect anyone's career or image, they could always get legal on his butt and sue him. I haven't heard of any lawsuits against Criss so I'm wondering if the magic community is more upset about Criss than the people who were allegedly harmed by his statements? I'm not saying one way or the other. Again, I'm just trying to keep it all in perspective. If after researching it, I find that Criss did do some crappy things to those that helped make his show as successful as it is, it would definitely affect how I personally feel about Criss. But, I still wouldn't beat him up publicly about it because it doesn't concern me and it's not my battle to wage. I feel like you Ralph also in that I enjoyed his stage show more than his TV special. I just want to say publicly that I also find you to be a smart and articulate person, who also seems to be passionate about the art of magic. My only point in all of this is that I just strive to keep things in perspective, consider the sources, and remember that credibility comes from the ability to do, not the ability to talk about doing. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
Let me just say one thing. I still think the word STOOGE needs to be better defined as I mentioned. It will keep this away from the personal attacks on Criss.
Second you never really address what Criss says about other magicians in general. How he tries to set himself apart by bashing others. THAT is where most of the heat comes from toward him not so much jealousy. Even on his TV show he says things like "yea all my restraints are real (un huh) and when you have to push buttons to get out of cuffs, then it is easy like most guys. That isn't how I do it". How can he spount nonsense like this and not expect to be bashed? As if he dosn't use the gimicked stuff and everyone else does, and he is better because of it. My point is that you guys who defend him seem to have selective amnesia when you try to remember the things like this. NO need to make statements like this. It makes guys doing escapes have to work harder. It can be done without that. BUT he insists on doing this and doing it a LOT. THAT is the reason he gets bashed as much as anything. How could he or anyone expect anything less.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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the levitator Special user Spellbound Productions 546 Posts |
"Let me just say one thing. I still think the word STOOGE needs to be better defined as I mentioned. It will keep this away from the personal attacks on Criss." -Dannydoyle
I totally get where you are coming from on that Danny. And I reread your posts and I think I have a better understanding of where you are coming from in regards to the term Stooge. That's why I felt like I needed to clarify myself because I didn't really make a clear statement on the bashing issue. I'm personally against bashing from anyone, and I do believe that those at the top of the foodchain should be especially careful of bashing others because they are kind of the public's image of us as sa group. That said, even though I don't agree with it, it's not my battle and I don't see how ripping on the guy after the fact is going to change anything. It's certainly not going to change his behaviour. Although I do see the good in all of us talking about it to raise the collective level of awareness on what we all expect from each other on certain issues. I particularly agrees with this: "How can he spount nonsense like this and not expect to be bashed? As if he dosn't use the gimicked stuff and everyone else does, and he is better because of it. " -Dannydoyle It seems to me like most magicians do a fair amount of "legitimizing" their act to add to the credibility, potential danger, and drama of it. But, I can see how comparing oneself to those using the same techniques and seperating yourself from those same performers by putting them down could easily be seen by people as being hypocritical. It's one thing to say something like, "Exmamine these shackles. As you can see they are normal and have no secret buttons, detachable links or trap doors" (this is the line I used to use with my comedy escape routine). It's quite another to say, "As you can see these are normal shackles and have no secret buttons, detachable links or trap doors, LIKE OTHER MAGICIANS HAVE TO USE." All of that said, I still can't speak for Criss as to why he would make these kinds of statements. And I haven't and still don't defend any of his actions or words in particular. Maybe he's taking a big government approach and thinks that if we all throw all of this kind of stuff around, nobody will be able to make sense of it and nobody will know who is doing it legit and who's faking it. Flooding the public with a bunch of nonsense to further confuse them isn't an old tactic with magicians. Please try and see that I'm not defending Criss or any other entertainer. I've just been trying to keep things in perspective for myself and explain where I stand on the general issues that everyone has specifically with Criss in how I relate to them in general and not specifically with Criss. Just because I'm not jumping on the Find Fault In Others bandwagon doesn't mean I'm defending them either, nor does it mean that I disagree with those who are upset with Criss. I undertand and agree for the most part with why everyone is so worked up about these particular issues with Criss. My only question is, has anyone personally challenged Criss on these issues? He has the respect and assistance of some of the tops in our business, and I'm sure if he cares a lot about what they think he must care at least a little what we as a community think. As angry as some people are about these issues I would think that they would want to target that anger at the person responsible for that anger. Maybe, just maybe, if enough magicians said enough things to Criss and he saw that it may affect not only his popularity with us but with the public in general then maybe, just maybe, he would change a few things. Maybe he wouldn't, but at least those who dissaprove with Criss on those issues could take comfort in the fact that at least they tried to do something about it, not to chastise Criss, but to maintain the integrity of an artform they love and respect. |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21214 Posts |
I guess that I am upset that he runs down the art and apparantly those who came before him, who he obviously immitates.
I don't even really disagree with him about a lot of things amature magicians do. BUT to paint everyone with such a broad brush, really isn't fair.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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