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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Sal Piacente's new DVD: Poker Cheats Exposed (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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BAH1313
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Everybody has an opinion. The funny thing is ALL of these moves were done in front of the camera where there is NO misdirection. NO way to turn the burn away from the mechanic. In a "real life" scenario, one could get away with a ton more just by implementing any kind of diversion or specific body language above and beyond the moves themselves. It doesn't take much.
I've seen real footage of guys pulling this stuff off and it's BLATANT the way they implement these moves, but nobody at the table sees a thing. It's only caught by the camera. Guys actually riffle shuffling and then pulling the deck apart and shuffling again. THE CARDS NEVER TOUCHED EACH OTHER!!!! It's hilarious to watch as a magician, but it's the facts of life.
These "cold deckers" and "mechanics" don't do it for entertainment. They do it for the money! Mess up in this forum and you could end up hurt or worse. Mess up in our world, someone just yells "I know how you did that!"
I am truly blessed to have a job where people are laughing all the time and everyone believes in magic....Come to think of it, I'm blessed to even have a job.
meijin
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I am in no way trying to say that Sal or Charlie should have any sort of flashy moves like a magician or someone into XCM would. Not at all. But, my comments concerning Charlie and the holdout device in the short sleeve stands...and I still have not seen anyone that has seen the DVD address it directly.It was bad. It was drawing attention to himself. He could not any any way (even with the shirt removed) smoothly (or even remotely smoothly) get the card into or out of the device. It flat would not fly any place. I agree with BAH that there is no opportunity to get away with misdirection and the like on the tape. But in this particular case, it still would not have worked. To be critical of what one sees is not necessarily being negative about it. I throughly enjoyed the DVD. for me, I certainly got my moneys worth out of it and am very glad that I bought it. But, just like when Mr. Wessmiller posted his video clip tribute to erdnase on this site for us to look at and comment on. Some folks are going to point out what they liked, others are going to point out what they didn't...or issues that they saw. It does not mean that the people are being negative towards Mr. Wessmiller when they make critical comments. Again, I am sure that Charlie has skills that I can only aspire to. And to pull off his work under fire is something not too many folks would even be willing to think about...much less do. But none of that makes his demonstration of that holdout device any better. One need not be an AKC certified judge to recognize a mutt walking down the street.

I too wish the cheat footage would have been left in. I really enjoyed that on Mr. Wessmiller's DVD. While you could burn him and "see" some of the moves he was making, you could still tell that they were done with enough skill that they would work under most circumstances.

And I am not trying to say that all of Charlie's moves were "bad". The hideout move was. The cooler deck was good. But I think it needed a better explaination. Obviously, anyone to the left or right of him would be all over it. How it was worked into the game or an example of that would have fit in really well there I think.

I really think some of you folks are confusing critical comments with negative comments. So that we are clear:

#1. I thinght the DVD was quite good. I own a lot of material on this topic and I would go so far as to say that I think it is probably the most complete presentation of poker related cheating that is out there. I especially like how he relates the moves to more common poker games now. Five card is not played near as much as it once was. To relate the moves to Hold'em, Omaha and 7 stud was a nice change of pace.

#2. For the info contained, I thought the price was good...especially since I had one of the discount codes that got me a little reduction in the listed price.

#3. I think Sal is extremely talented. This is not the only product of his that I own. Sal most certainly has skills that I never will have. I hope to see more and more info from Sal in the future.

#4. I am willing to take Sal at his word that Charlie is a talented and real cardsharp who made money from his under fire work. And I am sure that Charlie has skills that I will never have.

#5. Sal's company has great customer service. Dee was a pleasure to order through and work with and the shipping on the order was very fast.

#6. I would hate to play cards against Sal's daughter!

With all of that being said, if we are to continue the conversation, let's stick to what I actually said and not what other people think I said or what they think I ment. For those that have seen the DVD and have commented, do you really think the hideout move was that good?

Thanks for the comments.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
BAH1313
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Well said Michael. I'm sure that Sal would like to see what you have written, and would definately be complimented by your words.

PS You're right, never paly cards against that girl!

PM me and we'll talk more.
I am truly blessed to have a job where people are laughing all the time and everyone believes in magic....Come to think of it, I'm blessed to even have a job.
DerekS
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Meijin,
Regarding the hold out move, you stated "It flat would not fly any place". This statement is wrong in my mind. It largely depends on where you play. Apparently this "Charlie" was a 45 year poker cheat, so obviously the method worked for him. I myself am a college student. Would that move work with the games I play in? Yes. A lot of things work in my setting, as college kids simply do not have the knowledge that I have. Nobody here would even consider the possibility of a second deal. My point is that it depends on who/where you're playing with/at. From a critical view, I don't think the move is bad if not abused. The action is strange if done multiple times as he explained, but itching your arm is not unusual at all, not to mention when wearing a short sleeved shirt.
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-02-14 07:12, Expertmagician wrote:


For example....even though I thought the Malek DVD on Hold'em was VERY well done and professional. I did not learn anything. It was a rehash and summary of old information. Sigh :-(



With all due respect, the product wasn't really targeted towards you, but towards poker players. In this regard, the information presented in Malek's DVD is invaluable, particularly the sections on marked cards and proper shuffling and dealing. Even so, I'd say 95% of magicians are clueless on the latter also, so this is also helpful. The information presented was contemporary--no classic passes or draw poker moves.

Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
meijin
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DerekS:

I think your comments need to be addressed from a few perspectives.

So, the move in question would work in your game. What, exactly, does that prove? It is like I tell folks about playing poker [on the square]...simply winning a hand is no indication of how well you played the hand or how good a decision you made. Sometimes you get lucky. But, over time, bad moves and bad decisions will make you go broke. I certainly agree that certain moves will work in certain games or circumstances. In some games that I play, an overhand shuffle will not get a second glance. In other games, they will tell you immediately that a table riffle that follows the riffle/box/strip type of routine that you see in a casino is all that they allow. In some games, you could get away (once) with not offering a cut to the guy on the right. In other games, they will call it a misdeal right there and start the hand over.

In the case of the hideout move done by Charlie though, I stand by what I say. And it has nothing to do with how many times he showed the move. It has to do with the following reasons:

#1. When he cops a card out of his hand to move up to the holdout device (to either switch it or stash it), look at the position of his hand. He has the card in a "death grip". there is nothing natural about it at all.

#2. When he gets the card to the holdout device, he does not make the move look like anything. Do you really think he looks like he is scratching something on his arm there?

#3. Also when he gets there, it takes him "forever" to either make the switch or get the card in the device. Leaving himself in that position draws attention to himself.

#4. When bringing the stashed card back to his hand on the table, he again has the card in a very un-natural "death grip" looking hand position.

So, he could probably get away with the move once. But the idea with the holdout is to use it through out the game when the opportunity presents itself. Even amongst the slowest crowd that I play with, after him doing that a couple of times, something is going to be said about it. It is just too un-natural and draws way too much attention to himself. Even with the shirt off demonstrating the move, Charlie has a hard time with it. At one point, he has to make 3 attempts to get the card into the device and after he does, it is a bit askew and with a short sleeve over it would be sticking at a very bad angle for him.

Sal say that Charlie is a pro (albeit retired), so I take him at his word. As I have said before, maybe he is a little rusty due to being retired. They never said that the hideout was his best move. So, maybe he was demonstrating it. I remember a thread I read that involved Doc. He was talking about a particular move. He said it was not something he concentrated on and that he could do it or show someone how to do it, but don't expect it to be of a high enough standard that it would fly in a real game. Maybe the same is true here. But, I still stand by my earlier comment. the move is just plain bad. And repeated use of it with the same group of people over the course of a game would not fly. Combine winning the hand every time he makes that ackward move and someone is going to catch on sooner or later.

But...that is just my opinion.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
meijin
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Expertmagician:

If you are looking for something totall new or revolutionary on Sal's DVD, then I would suggest that you save your money. Even as much of a relative newbie as I am, I did not see anything new or revolutionary on the entire thing. I saw some good demonstration, some good presentation, some good teaching, etc. But nothing even I would consider to be new or revolutionary.

As Mr. Z said about David Malek's DVD. This is geared and marketed towards the poker player. Here's the typical types of things you will be up against and here is what to look for so you can spot it. Again, I throughly enjoyed the DVD. I learned from it and will be for sometime (again, I am a newbie). BUt I wouldn't (and didn't) appraoch it as some sort of new and/or revolutionary expose of cheating.

Like Solomon said, there is nothing new under the sun.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
DerekS
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Meijin,
You stated "So, the move in question would work in your game. What, exactly, does that prove?" Well, that means the money comes home with me. Again, with cheating this is THE POINT. If you get the money, then what else matters? This is all I'm trying to tell you. This man Charlie used a move that worked in his games. Do you think he cares that others might think it looks bad? Your criticism on the move is welcome, and you justified it. I understand it isn't a move you would employ, but you should understand that he used it because it did indeed work over and over. I think it's good that you're looking at this from multiple perspectives, thought you're seeing it from primarily your own. If you want my opinion on this, I wouldn't use that move in a game. Then again, I'm not a fan of holding out in this way, or really in general. It is very clear to me why he used this move though, it won him money.
mook
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Quote:
On 2006-02-14 14:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.


You obviously don't have, nor have you seen this DVD. The production quality surpasses the Malek DVDs. I really enjoyed these DVDs: explanations, definitions, demonstrations, etc. Top notch product and like the others who own it, I say well worth the money.

And as far as those who say there is nothing new on Sal's poker DVD, where have you seen location play and the formula for "juice" exposed? I would like to add those resources to my collection.
meijin
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Mook:

As for location play, I got some good info on that from Jim Swain.

As for the juice formula, his was fairly simple and I am sure he knows others that he did not include there. I think a good web search could get you roughly the same information he presented there.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-02-14 18:23, mook wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-02-14 14:33, Mr. Z wrote:
Not to mention the production values just blow away everything else in the genre.


You obviously don't have, nor have you seen this DVD.


You're right. Judging from the trailer clip, though, it appears as if Sal's was shot in his home. Malek's was shot on a Hollywood sound-stage, and all those impressive specs can be found listed on the net. Really quite remarkable.

Not to take anything away from Sal's DVD, of course.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-02-14 18:35, meijin wrote:

As for location play, I got some good info on that from Jim Swain.



Vol. 2 of GPS also.
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
meijin
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DerekS:

Again, I think you miss the point. It is not a matter of whether I "like" the move or would use the move. It is a matter of how good the move is. And by good or bad, I am referring to how well the move could be used under fire...not how flashy or nice it looks.

the point you still have not addressed is the fact that the move, as shown on the DVD could not continued to be used the way it is demonstrated. Are you honestly going to tell me that you think he could pull off that same move in the same game 5 or 6 times the way he demonstrates it on the DVD? I don't...and if you do, I have a poker game I'd like to invite you to! Smile

Look at it this way...you are playing in a hold'em game and you get an Ace set as the second card in the deck as you begin to deal. You start dealing seconds and everytime you do, you leave a hanger stickingout there. You may win that hand, but are you going to continue dealing seconds with a hanger on every card every time you attempt the move? Any move done poorly and repeatedly is going to get caught.

That's all I am trying to say.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
meijin
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Mr. Z:

It was in the discussion of Steve Forte and GPS that the info came up as Jim and Forte have been good friends for a number of years. He even has a character in one of his fictional books that is based on Forte.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
DerekS
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Meijin,
Your scenario regarding second dealing is entirely different. Obviously we have different opinions. I understand why you think this is not a good move. But what you don't understand is that this was a good move for this man because it won him money.

Do I think he could do this 5 or 6 times in HIS games? Ask him, not me. Note the emphasis on the word "his". Your posts have led me to believe you each play in vastly different settings.
meijin
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DerekS:

Maybe I am nitpicking, but I will have to go back to Charlie's section and see if they specifically say he won money with that particular move. I don't remember that. And if he did, I still say he will not have won it done the way he performs it on the DVD.

Certainly we can agree to disagree...but I would state to you again that the bottom line is not him winning money with the move.I would much rather be in a position to use a move that can be repeated, does not draw attention to me and leaves me clean to come back and take the money from these same people on a regular basis. I don't see that move as presented on the DVD as falling into that category. So, I guess we are beating a dead dog there. But I do appreciate the conversation and debate!

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
DerekS
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Meijin,
No hard feelings. I believe you're right in the fact that Charlie does not say he used this specific move to win money. It was my assumption. I don't think he states that he used any move specifically to win his money. I assumed he did employ the few moves he exposed, but of course I could be wrong.
mook
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Quote:
On 2006-02-14 18:38, Mr. Z wrote:
You're right. Judging from the trailer clip, though, it appears as if Sal's was shot in his home. Malek's was shot on a Hollywood sound-stage, and all those impressive specs can be found listed on the net. Really quite remarkable.

Not to take anything away from Sal's DVD, of course.


Don't really know what you're talking about, as far as the clip:
https://www.pocketacesllc.net/clip.html

Don't see any indication of where it was shot, since all it looks like is a bunch of close-ups of moves. From what I see, it could have been shot anywhere and I personally wouldn't know the difference. As far as being shot on a "Hollywood" sound stage, that doesn't make a difference to me since many "Hollywood" shows and movies are shot on-location, hence NOT on a "Hollywood" sound-stage.

But to clarify what I (and maybe others who have actually seen the DVD) meant about production value: there are awesome motion graphics on Sal's DVDs. The text on the screen identifies the moves and gives definitions of terms used. Sal says they wrote it with beginners in mind, but for all playing levels, since poker is so popular right now.

Just took another look at Charlie too. Not the smoothest with that arm band. Being a former poker dealer, I would hope that I would notice something like that, although I have seen surveillance tapes with poker cheating. Some moves were so ugly that I wouldn't have believed anyone who told me that they really happened in a casino if I didn't see it for myself. They say it takes more b@ll$ than skill to make a move though...
Mr. Z
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You are Sal's #1 fan for sure. Smile
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-02-15 02:27, mook wrote:
They say it takes more b@ll$ than skill to make a move though...


Ya. Skill wouldn't hurt though, would it?
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
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