I've seen several postings of folks who want to buy a combo Cups & Balls (C/B) set so that they can use the chop feature in a regular C/B routine, or use the chopped cup as a one-cup Chop Cup routine.

What bothers me about this line of thought is that, to me, the Chop Cup and a standard C/B effect are really two very different things. The usual C/B routine involves vanishes, productions and wanderings of three balls among three cups. The Chop Cup is a one-cup routine with a different premise and feel -- the ball is visually removed from the cup and always returns somehow, or is invisibly removed from the cup and appears somewhere else. Although both effects usually end with a final load, they are designed to do different things.

So I say, if you want to do the Chop Cup, get a Chop Cup and do that. If you want to do the Cups & Balls, get a C/B set and do that. But a combo set just seems to me to be the usual attempt to "improve" a trick by combining two tricks or adding a feature that isn't really necessary. I say this knowing there are several excellent routines for combo sets (the Mendoza routine, for example). But at least in my experience, they always seemed to be more trouble than they were worth.

By the way, I'm not against progress or anything like that. In fact, I own a few "improved" Okito boxes with several additional features, magnetic and otherwise, that were never imagined by Okito. But unlike a combo set, these additions actually earn their keep, and don't change or interfere with the performance or the effect. And yes, I actually bought a combo set once, in the hopes that it would improve my C/B routine. It now graces my infamous Magic Drawer, along with various other items that just never worked out.

That's been my experience with combo sets, your mileage may vary. SETH

Well, during a 3 cup C&B routine you can place a ball on an inverted cup, cover it and lift the covering cup and the ball is GONE.

It really depends on the routine you devise.

The important thing is don't get GREEDY with the principle.

I found, for my feeble, aging brain, the I would lose track of the M ball and have something happen that I didn't expect... so I don't use a combo for that reason... but if you are structured and do the same routine all the time it should be no problem.

I think the most common reason people go for the Combo cups is nothing more than people trying to get as much as they can for their magic dollar. I expect that most combo sets go to people new to the effect. Of course I have no data to support this its only a guess. But, I did it....... Then again I never used them as such. I do my Chop Cup with my little Copper Cup for its easy to carry feature. I love my little Copper Chop Cup, we've had a lot of fun!

The reason for the combo Cups and Balls was way back in the early 1970's John Mendoza created and wrote a wonderful routine for this type of C & B's. It is only in print by Morrissey Magic out of Canada.

John is a member of the Café and a wonderful creative mind in Magic. He has produced 2 books, 'The Book of John' and 'The Book of John II' (both out of print). Talk about visual creative close-up magic. These books will teach you fantastic magic plus how to routine magic effects. No the C & B's routine are not in these books.

Not many will tackle this fabulous routine with the C & B's as it is only available in printed form. It is so complete that no one has ever attempted to improve it. Why? It is already perfect magic in its creattion.

Check it out if you dare!

That one vanish from the top of the cup, known as the Mendoza move, is the primary reason for the combo feature.

Remember, you can do any normal C&B routine with a combo set.

I agree that most combo sets are probably purchased with the "more bang for your buck" theory. The problem, of course, is that the chop feature is usually pretty obvious unless it is spun into the cup. And the chopped cup never sounds the same as the other cups when you bang on them.

Incidentally, although I haven't tried it, I believe the same effect of the "Mendoza move" can be accomplished with a straight C/B set. I think the non-gimmicked move is known as the "Morrissey move." SETHB

I have developed a very clean 2 cup routine (1 chop, 1 reg) that I swear by. It combines features of both C&B and Chop cup. I see absolutely nothing wrong with this as it is easy to follow, original, and has served as a creative outlet for me. If I was forced to limit myself to old, established routines - however brilliant they may be - I would have given it up long ago.......

Check out the Charlie Frye DVD.

Aside from being 2 of the most impressive and entertaining DVDs I've ever seen in my life, the cups and balls routine is quite wonderful.

If you want the best chop cup, get a hold of the Riser Shorty from Jim Riser

Actually, the move predates Mendoza by at least 10 years, maybe more. Larry King, who lived in Houston, produced a chop cup set called "The Cup and a Half." It used a chop cup that was made from a cocktail shaker, cut down to about half its normal length. Then there was a separate smaller cup, about the height of a shot glass, that came with it. This move was part of Larry's routine.

I seriously doubt that either Mendoza knew about Larry's sets, because they are quite rare and were VERY "underground." I just recently acquired a set, which will be on the web site soon.

There is a centrifugal move that will do something similar to the Mendoza move, but it isn't as clean. It goes back a VERY long way.

So, why do the combo cups? I always do them. I never do straight cups and balls, but in my routine I use the chopped cup precisely twice, no more. Both times are right at the front of the routine where it is unlikely I will have something go wrong by improvising and throwing in a routine and finding that I lost the chop cup and the ball. After those two times I set the chop cup forward on the mat and it becomes a 2 cup routine until the end for the final loads.

So I get the chop cup outta there so it can't bite me. Thus allowing my old brain and avoiding the quandary that Mr. Biro described.

Still, why do it - if I only use the two moves, why?

Why not?