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Paul H Inner circle UK South Coast 1135 Posts |
I think that simple is better when it comes to hustling. More often working as a team, two or three specialist sleight of hand techniques are applied at most. Pyrotechnical stacking of two or more hands is probably more a rarity. With the possible exception of the cooler whose introduction has to be carefully timed, these methods are employed to favorably bias the odds and slowly grind out a profitable edge without attracting heat.
Regards, Paul H |
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TheCount New user 49 Posts |
"In old days when we played Draw Poker it was not too hard to cull after hands had been played: The nature of the game meant players would sort their hands in groups. Lets say some one had trip Queens they put then down together and then it
was just an easy matter of picking them and putting them on bottom or whatever. In Holdem games it is not so simple as the hands are sorted like that. " This is true, but you also require substantially fewer cards in Hold'em and the stacking is much easier. Considering you can offer a full house to two of your opponents and keep a better full house for yourself using only ten cards, while the same feat in draw would require fifteen cards. You can modify that further to give yourself four of a kind instead of the superior full house using only eight cards. You shouldn't do that of course, it's far too obvious, but it demonstrates a six card lead over the draw poker equivalent and it also works out much better as far as betting is concerned. Considering that in the worst case scenario a clever cheat should have knowledge of 11 cards before he starts dealing and in most cases he can have knowledge of 15, often more, depending on his level of skill, building effective hands is not difficult at all. Some sort of shuffle cull for one or two cards and you have an extremely powerful arsenal, all for relatively little work. And I'd argue that you'll have a better chance of getting big pots in cases such as this than in comparable cases with draw poker. Taking this principle a step further, you can give four full houses to opponents and four of a kind to yourself using only ll cards, that's a 13 card advantage over the same in draw poker. Add another card and you can give another opponent a full house for a 17 card advantage over draw poker. Add three more cards and you can give another player a flush, for a nineteen card advantage over draw poker. As I stated, you don't want to do this in practice, the psychology of the set up isn't even good, but it's a very economical approach and demonstrates why cheating at Hold'em has such potential. I find it's also more relaxed because the cards are fixed, you don't have to worry about varying draws, false deals when players draw etc. Now putting this type of work in on your opponent's deal without the use of a cooler is particularly pleasant though somewhat more difficult. As for the odds over the long term. There's a great deal to be said for this, but there's also a lot to be said for just cheating once in a night and using that advantage to greater effect as a player, assuming you are capable. Ultimately, it's also nice not to have any loose ends to clean up and also nice to be able to sit down at any card table at any time and achieve the same kind of success you would by using a cooler. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
If your a dealer you can do it over a few hands: Lets say find an Ace and just keep it on bottom and the next hand look for another, do the same so now you have two Aces at the bottom for the third hand or whatever.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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TheCount New user 49 Posts |
"If your a dealer you can do it over a few hands: Lets say find an Ace and just keep it on bottom and the next hand look for another, do the same so now you have two Aces at the bottom for the third hand or whatever. "
Yes, you can and as a fixed dealer you have a ton of advantages, but you can achieve most of the same feats without a fixed dealer as well if you bide your time, watch for the right moment and take advantage of the situation you find yourself in. I wonder very seriously to what extent people have actually tried playing with discard culling. Granted, it doesn't work so well for magic so I suppose that's a consideration. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Knowledge of 15 Cards! How, might I ask, are you going to get that knowledge exactly?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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TheCount New user 49 Posts |
It's very simple, in Hold'em you have 5 visible cards, plus your own two, that's 7. In most cases you'll end with seeing the cards of at least one opponent, that's 2 more for a total of 9. In a lot of cases you'll be able to learn the identity of the cards in two other player's hands. For example, if you fold early and two players go head to head you get to see an extra hand. If three players are left in at the end you get to see three hands. We'll set those 4 potential cards aside for the moment. Additionally, there's the possibility of peeking some other cards from the discard, again, we'll set them aside for now. Anyone worth their salt can peek the top and bottom card, that's two more for a total of 11. That's the basic number I stated, the 15 was in most not all cases.
So let's expand on that, usually you can see two or four more cards, depending on the circumstances, number of players etc. (I should point out that the fewer players are in the game the less number of cards you're likely to gain knowledge of but also the less are necessary). Furthermore, if you're good you can generally peek multiple cards on the top and bottom, for example a heel peek to peek the identity of the top three to five cards. Again, it partially depends on your skill and how lucky you are with the round before the one you're dealing, as well as the company you're in etc. It's a question of bidding your time, working with what you've got at the opportune moment etc. Anyway, I hope you can see how knowledge of 15 cards really isn't that many when you pay attention and know what you're doing. |
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ronfour Regular user 162 Posts |
TheCount,
Do you speak from experience? |
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TheCount New user 49 Posts |
"Do you speak from experience? "
On which point? I'm afraid I'm sadly unable to heel peek 5 cards at once, so on that point no, though I know of people who can do it and have read of others, hence my reference. On riffle culling or discard culling or a combination, yes to some extent. As for waiting for the opportune moment, it's a mixed bag. I have at times not taken this advice, on other occassions I've been frightened into taking this advice. I have been rewarded for taking this advice rather than being overly impulsive and I've experienced the opposite. I know that brazen can be rewarding, but I also know that brazen can be dangerous. Looking back further, I have definitely experienced the disappointment of assuring myself victory only to have no one ready to take the stand with me, which is why I am very emphatic that you should double duke or more if you are going to go to the trouble of setting up your own hand. Honestly though, something else I've learned from experience is that the little edge you can gain and grind over time works well. Just knowing one card each of your opponents is holding is an enormous advantage over the long term. Just being able to give your partner one or two good cards every now and then is an enormous advantage over the long term. Does that answer your question? |
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ronfour Regular user 162 Posts |
TheCount,
No, that doesn't answer my question. I wanted to know how much experience you have cheating in real money games, using the methods you describe. Your posts suggest an air of superiority, gained from experience, on the subject. Myself, I am just interested in the subject. |
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magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts |
I use the MacDougall Cull.
A.S.E |
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