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dafin77
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I have a question for those of you who use full-deck stacks.

I'm trying to decide which stack to memorize. Some stacks--e.g., Mnemonica and others--can be gotten into via faro shuffles, runs, and cuts from new deck order. So if one has a shuffled deck and wants to get into the stack, one first gets into NDO, then does the faros, etc. The first step--getting into NDO--is something I can do pretty quickly without even needing a table, or anyway without needing much table space. (First separate red and black, then suits,...) So: going from a shuffled deck to stack order with this sort of stack doesn't require a great deal of time or space (assuming that one is good at faros).

I'm wondering about other stacks--Joyal's or Aronson's, for example. My question for those of you who use such stacks: How *exactly* do you get from a shuffled deck to stack order? Do you first go through the deck looking for card number 1, then 2,... This would seem pretty time consuming. Do you make a lot of piles on a table? What are the steps you take?

Just to be clear: this isn't a question about getting into stack order in front of people. I'm worried about the effort it takes to get into stack order at all--unless one is using a stack that can be faro'ed into. I'm attracted to the Joyal Stack because it's so easy to keep in mind. On the other hand, I'm attracted to some kind of 4- or 5-faro stack because it seems like set-up would be so much easier. But I don't really know what's involved in setting up, e.g., the Joyal Stack. So again my question is: Exactly what steps do you take to get the shuffled deck into order?
David Finkelstein
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scorch
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To answer your question would be exposure, which is not allowed on the Café. However, no matter which stack you end up learning, you will definitely want to get the Tamariz and Aronson books anyway for the wealth of routines and suggestions they contain that can be applied to any stack. And then you can decide for yourself.

But ultimately I wonder why you are asking what you are asking. If you want to set up in front of specs and have a lot of built-in effects, and also be able to end up back in NDO (which in my experience is more practical and powerful than starting in NDO), then Mnemonica is what you want. But if you aren't concerned about setting up in front of specs, what does it matter? Surely you're not concerned about how easy or difficult it would be to set up the stack away from an audience? That's only a few minute's work at worst to sort through the cards and get them into the stack.
LobowolfXXX
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I go through the deck and move cards 1-13 or so toward the top of the deck, then put them in order, then go through the bottom 3/4 of the deck and get the next batch, etc. Once you have the stack numbers down cold, it's not much more burdensome than sorting by suit, and almost certainly less burdensome than sorting by suit and then going through some additional process.
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Eric Falconer
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There's a trick in 'Encyclopedia of Card Magic' that allows you to get into stack in the context of a trick. The effect is simple. I will not describe the method but here is the effect:

3 Spectators choose 3 Cards... Then they shuffle the cards thoroughly... each takes their card and 1/3rd of the deck. The magician then proceeds to call out each card in the deck... as he calls it out each spectator returns the card to the hand of the magician. The magician never repeats a card and the last three cards called are the three original selections of each spectator. When done quickly this is an impressive feat of memory... and you end up in stack.
Eric Falconer

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Mito
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As I said in your Genii post:
To get into the Aronson stack from a shuffled deck, I separate the colours with a spread cull, spread them on a table one above the other, and just pick out the cards. From shuffled deck to finish it takes just under 2 minutes.
Daegs
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I use the joyal stack, here is my method:

I seperate into my stack order(spade, diamond, club, heart) all suited(NDO cept last two have already been reversed).

I do this because I can do it in under a minute and I always like the practice.

After that, I go through the stack putting each card reversed below the deck... this lets me run through the stack card by card, I spread it and take the card I want into the edge of right hand side of spread, turn it upside down and take it under the deck, then repeat.


This approach may take longer than setting it down on the table spread and pulling cards out, but this method is in the hands...

takes about 4-6 minutes I'd say.


Faro's might be faster(under 2 min) but I don't set it up often enough to really worry me....


If I did it over again, rather than learning Joyal(which is SUPER easy btw), I'd probably learn Si Stebbins memorized.

Steven Y. praises this, and the more and more I think about it I agree...

You can go from NDO, use Darwin's Si Stebbins secret and be in Si Stebbins in a second.... then you have a Cyclic, ordered AND memorized deck all within 30 seconds of opening a pack....

So I think if you are willing to put in the effort, memorize SI stebbins or another 4-6 Faro stack...

Personally I already learnt joyal(which took like 3 hours) and its not worth the effort imho to learn a whole new stack for the benifits, but if you havent learned any stacks yet, it might be a good route to go
ithomson
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Dafin77

Tamariz's "Mnemonica" has a number of solutions to your question ("The Great Divide" springs to mind), including a number of deck switches that could be considered. "Mnemonica" also includes a routine or two that ends up with the deck in new deck order. And one lovely routine that tells you how to handle a sealed deck so that it looks new but is actually stacked.

Eric has already mentioned the Nikola effect in "Encyclopedia Of Card Magic", and that plays very well in the right context.

Hope that helps.

Ian
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I use the si stebbins secret every time I open a deck.
when I'm alone, performing, anytime.

the results are too good to pass up.

I have tried memorizing the stack but have yet been unable to do so.

Until that time, the stack is more than useful and amazing as is.
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T. Joseph O'Malley
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I usually just manually set the stack up at home. It's a good review for the memory. It takes less than 5 minutes. It's fun. I also practice Tamariz's shuffling procedures for fun.

I rarely set the stack up in front of people ie. on the fly. I have done so a couple of times with the shuffling methods mentioned in Mnemonica, but my faros aren't good enough to count on this 100% of the time, nor are the cards, or the environment.
tjo'
Michael J. Douglas
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I use Osterlind's BCS. To set up the deck, I basically do what Daegs does. Running thru the stack to set it up also refreshes it in your mind.
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BarryFernelius
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Sometimes I set up a partial stack in front of the spectators, but normally I use the same modus operandi as T. Joseph O'Malley. Althought I typically carry just one deck of cards when I'm doing strolling work, I usually keep four decks of cards in my close-up bag. And yes, each of the decks is in stack order.
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jcigam
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I know this information has been put out before but to make it easy on you here it is again http://www.simonaronson.com and http://www.loomismagic.com (There are others but these two have a lot of information)

If you peruse these web sites they will help you make a more educated decision. I personally use Simon Aronson's. As far as the new deck order issue goes it might save time but I wouldn't do any MemDeck work in a situation where I would have to prepare under fire.

Just my opinion,

Jered S.
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dafin77
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I'm grateful to all who have so far responded, and I have a question for Daegs. If one is going to go to the trouble of memorizing a stack anyway, why would one want it to be cyclic and ordered? The Si Stebbins stack doesn't look particularly random--with reds and blacks alternating card by card. What--besides the Si Stebbins Secret (which I really can see the value of)--would be the pay-off; why do you wish you'd memorized Si Stebbins instead of Joyal? And where does Steven Youell talk about this?
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mmize
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I'm all for keeping this as simple as possible...which in my mind would be a deck switch. If you're wanting to perform a trick that requires a full-deck stack, why not perform a trick with a regular deck, and have it handled and examined? Then put the deck away and do something else with coins, or rings, or turtles, whatever. Then ring in the stacked deck to show them another card effect, the fact that they already handled and examined the deck takes a lot of heat off your stacked deck.
dafin77
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Mmize: I'm asking about how people get into stack order when they're *not* in front of spectators--what they cull, how much time it takes them, whether they first get into something like NDO, whether they use a table...
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Daegs
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Well, first off he talks about it in the WMD notes and I *believe* the hacker stack .pdf he put out.

His basic reasoning is that he can get into it within 30 seconds from NDO and this is a huge boon.

One thing is that if you can get into a stack(memorized, cylic, whatever) within 30 sec from NDO or 1:30 from shuffled, then you should have no qualms about destroying the stack...

He(and I) believes this allows greater agility with what you can perform, since having half of the stack destroyed simply to throw off spectators or whatnot is not a big deal. By getting into it so fast, the idea is that you are more willing to let the cards be shuffled and whatnot.

Secondly, is the idea that having a single stack is better than multiple. If you have a single stack that you can get into within 30 sec, then that means you can do memorized effects OR simple sequence effects(having card selected and peaking next card) very easily(some may say that you can do this with mem deck easily too, which I agree with but using the seq is one less piece of work your mind has to do). This opens up your range of effects possible to both sequential effects that might rely on the CHaSeD nature of the deck, the fact that mates are 26 apart, or whatever, in addition to the many memorized deck effects.

The only real downside is that the stack might not look as random.

Now, I use the joyal which is about as close as totally random looking(imho) as a stack can get, suits are all over the place, pairs of values, evenly distrubuted, etc.... I very rarely have to "convince" spectators that it is a shuffled deck, and if I did I believe that Si Stebbins would stand up.


I guess it comes down to how you want to use a memorized deck.... personally since I do a lot of card things and I am always messing with a shuffled pack, I keep a memorized deck in standby mode waiting for a deckswitch in special occassions.

If you are performing less card effects, then perhaps this might work to as you might ONLY use a deck for memorized stuff.

For Steven, everytime he pulls out a deck its probably in si stebbins or a sealed deck which is soon in si stebbins, so he can do some opening stuff that doesn't disturb it, then do some quick mindblowers that destroy the stack int he process and continue on....

I can't imagine closing with the si stebbings approach since the bulk of the benifit is that you can get into it fast.. if you are doing a whole act of cardstuff, manytimes mem deck stuff is closer or later material, so you are better off deckswitching.... but if used as opener or sooner in act than you can start with the stack so something that is fast to get into might be better.


If you just want to jazz with the memdeck by using it as an open index, then si stebbins would be the way to go too since its fast to get itno and you don't need to prove no stack is in play.

personally I found memdeck stuff not to my liking(didnt really jive with my character) so now if I am going to use it its mostly jazz stuff or magician material.... and I think si stebbins would work for both.


I would pick what type of material you want to perform and then figure out what approach works for you... I know if I did it over again then I'd go for a si stebbins or small# faro approach since I'd like to get into it fast from NDO and just jazz with it....

if you want to do closing stuff then perhaps a more random looking and deckswitch would be better.


All personal preference really...
T. Joseph O'Malley
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Quote:
On 2006-02-24 12:05, dafin77 wrote:
Mmize: I'm asking about how people get into stack order when they're *not* in front of spectators--what they cull, how much time it takes them, whether they first get into something like NDO, whether they use a table...


I think your question is being misunderstood here by most.
tjo'
BarryFernelius
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Quote:
On 2006-02-24 12:05, dafin77 wrote:
Mmize: I'm asking about how people get into stack order when they're *not* in front of spectators--what they cull, how much time it takes them, whether they first get into something like NDO, whether they use a table...


Sorry if I misconstrued the original request. I use a very simple procedure. I use Lennert Green's Green Angle separation to rapidly separate the deck into red/black and then into suits. I then go to the suit for card with stack number 1, and place that card face up on the table. Card number 2 goes face up on card number 1 and so on. The whole procedure can be done in 2 minutes 30 seconds.
"To achieve great things, two things are needed: a plan and not quite enough time."

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mmize
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Yes, I misunderstood you as well. I use the Si Stebbens stack, for example. (In fact, I've been noodling around with it today) I start with all four cards of a specific value laid out on the table and build piles from there as I work through the sequence. Then I stack the four piles. In all it takes like 3-5 minutes.
shanester
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There are many ways to stack a deck.
Away from spectators-
Biddle method (hold deck in Biddle grip right hand, peel off cards into correct position in stack which is being built in right hand). Takes just over 2 minutes if you have the stack well memorized. This can be made simpler by using some sort of cull to separate halves or quarters by their stack number
Go to NDO and (as I use Mnemonica) use either the Faro or anti-Faro method (2mins)

In front of spectator
Nikola method (an effect in itself )
Memory Jumble (half stack)then either Biddle or force card no 52 and eliminate the other 31 as stacking.
Mnemonica has an huge amount of info on how to do this.

Shanester
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