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CasualSoul
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Quote:
On 2006-02-26 18:36, raphlo2 wrote:
I agree completely with Greg. The problem with this BBoard is that magicians from all levels have access to it. I think that more experienced magicians, or working magicians, have developed respect for other peoples work, while more novice magicians are trying to get their hands on everything. I've always thought that you should have to pass some sort of test to have access to these boards, for that reason.


As an amateur myself, I'm not offended by this and I can completely understand this perspective, but isn't there already a "secured" area on the Café?

Although I also do agree with most of what Greg said, I've been pouring over these boards for a long time before I finally joined and still stand by my statement that most posters are respectful of the Code. Of course I have a passion to learn and grow as a magician and try to glean as much as I can from the words of all the pros that post here, but I don't like it any more than any professional magician does when people are getting to know secrets for free that I had to pay for. Never mind the fact that people who learn without buying are often missing out on so many of the subtle technical details that take an effect from good to great. But I don't think I'm alone in saying that my intention is not to steal magic, it's to:

1. weed out the good from the crap magic that's for sale out there (i do the same kind of research before I make any kind of purchase decision)
2. learn new approaches to magic I already do; and
3. share my own knowledge and experiences with those that can benefit from it.

It's also just nice to be able to talk about magic with fellow magicians, as there are few people in our regular life we can talk to about it.
"Open their mind by performing the impossible"
The Great Dave
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Quote:
On 2006-02-25 10:47, Dr Marvin wrote:
I know that you just want to learn, but imitating what another person has done is not helping you or your art. If you’re a musician you don’t play other peoples songs, you come up with your own. And if you a painter you just don’t paint other people's paintings, you come up with your own.
Dr Marvin
2-25-06


Whit Haydn has a wonderful essay on 'Against Originality in Magic'. I'll quote a little of it here ...

"It is essential that those who want to learn magic start by copying or imitating others. There is nothing wrong with this - provided of course, that the effects and routines being copied have been published by the originators. In fact, I don't believe one can learn to be a good magician except by imitation. A beginning guitar player isn't told to make up original songs. He first learns to play other people's work. Neither should a beginning magician be asked to do original tricks. All the great magicians had to learn their craft somewhere. They all began by copying the work of those that they admired."

"Without spending time performing a routine the way it was created, the student abandons all the experience, knowledge, and thought that went into its creation."

Whit Haydn
"The Chicago Surprise"
Copyright September, 2000

This is just a fraction of the article, and before anyone comments on this snippet out of context you should read the article in it's complete form in all fairness to Whit and also to others who have purchased and read it.

Best Wishes
Academy of Magical Arts

Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ...
Dannydoyle
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I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period. So it does not apply to what we are speaking of in the least.

In the beginning he is 100% correct. What about MOST of the guys on this board who are donig this for years and years? Are they covered by what was said? I don't think so.

He also mentions "published by the originators!" again a key concept.

He does NOT mention sitting arround and trying to figure out the method now does he?

Nowhere in the article does he mention this I don't believe.

Point is he spoke of beginners and I feel he is right. BUT at some point you branch out on your own. This is the part most miss.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
FatTony
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I'm pretty new to these forums and I haven't learned the methods for a single thing through these boards.

MOST of the time, someone wanting to learn something is referred to a resource to learn it. That requires time and money ( read: dedication ) to learn.
The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed. - Einstein
The One
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Quote:
On 2006-02-27 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period. So it does not apply to what we are speaking of in the least.

In the beginning he is 100% correct. What about MOST of the guys on this board who are donig this for years and years? Are they covered by what was said? I don't think so.

He also mentions "published by the originators!" again a key concept.

He does NOT mention sitting arround and trying to figure out the method now does he?

Nowhere in the article does he mention this I don't believe.

Point is he spoke of beginners and I feel he is right. BUT at some point you branch out on your own. This is the part most miss.




I agree.

There is also the ones who just copy... and think they're as good as any Pro.

By the way... Time and money is not neccesarily dedication.
I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end...
I came here...
To tell you how this is going to begin.
chichi711
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Time and money does take a certain level of interest though. Most people will not dedicate time and money just to find out how the local magician fooled him.
The Great Dave
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Quote:
On 2006-02-27 11:02, Dannydoyle wrote:
I have read the article. Matter of fact on publication.

So what?

It has NOTHNIG to do with the point. Mr. Haydn is speaking in context of BEGINNING magic. period.


Actually, in review of the entire article, it could be interpreted that Mr. Haydn is speaking in the context of learning magic from a routine purchased by a magician of any interest and background - and at any level of experience. The objective would be to learn the routine as presented by the creator, and then add some originality to it if needed.

Best Wishes
Academy of Magical Arts

Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ...
Bill Hallahan
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The following are my personal opinions.

Dave is correct, it's not necessarily wrong to perform a published routine exactly as written. In fact, some authors even state that you should do just that! That type of ethical copying is not art, it's craft. Like Whit Haydn writes, it's what musicians do when they play someone else's music exactly as written without adding anything to it. If they have the ethical right to play the music, then there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.

But this topic isn't about that. The original post is about publicly disassembling a performer's routines. I see that as similar to standing in the hallway outside their show handing out pamphlets exposing their tricks to the audience members as they leave.

We magicians are like laymen too if we don't know the method for a trick. And performers have the right to amaze anyone, even magicians, without us ruining it for them. There are plenty of tricks for us to learn without exposing other people's material.

I don't assume that if someone is curious about a trick that they will copy it and perform it. But I also know that some magicians will almost certainly copy a publicly exposed trick. Not everyone follows performance ethics.

And by the way, even if the trick is published, I don't think it's right to expose it in the context of exposing a performer's act. Again, magicians aren't necessarily any different than a layman when it comes to a trick that they don't know. We shouldn't ruin someone else's show. If someone asks me how to do trick X, and some other criteria are met, then I'll tell them the method if I know it. If someone asks how magician Y does trick X, I'm not going to tell them.

Anyone who's ever performed something totally original that they created, only to be told that the audience had seen it before done by a copyist understands this issue. Anyone who's amazed another magician only to have another magician reveal the secret to their trick also understands.

And because of the unethical copyists, such public discussions do real harm.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
karbonkid
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I don't know about y'all but, I like to be fooled. I really do. As a matter of fact, everytime I see an effect, I just kick back and enjoy it, and if it makes me go 'WOW!', then I go about obtaining that for my repetoire, especially if it fits me.

Most magic performed by Blaine, Angel, or Cyril isn't my style, would never be my style, or my liking to research it. In casual conversation a fellow magician and my self might kick around a method, but, to be honest, I think it's like DannyDoyle said most of these people that get on this board are here for short cuts. On top of that, magicians hate to be fooled. It's a problem with the group as a whole. Not that everyone falls into this, but, a fair number do, and I think, especially beginners/novices are privy to this.
chichi711
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I love to be fooled. That is even why I don't let camera edits bug me. I like to feel like a spectator does. Infact many times I will purchase a DVD and not watch the explanations of effects for months. I have even gone over a year with some dvd's. The effects are not ones I would perfom, so why kill the magic?

Having said that. I don't think that "most" magicians are on here just for a short cut. Sometimes just asking a question of "how did they do that" makes everyone think. It makes everyone become creative in there own way. I don't always see that as a bad thing.
The Great Dave
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From the Pledge signed by all members of the International Brotherhood of Magicians ...

"I also pledge not to expose the modus operandi of any magical effect."


From the Oath of the Society of American Magicians ...

"I agree not to expose any modus operandi from stage, platform, television, radio or in any manner whatsoever.

I am opposed to cheap literature wherein magical secrets are needlessly exposed, or to the sale of professional magical effects in cheap miniature form to the public.

I am opposed to needless and useless explanations of secrets to persons who are not entitled to know them or who are not interested in magic.

I am opposed to placing any legitimate performer in a predicament while that person is before an audience."



Best Wishes
Academy of Magical Arts

Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat! Whoops, wrong hat ...
Mystician
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Quote:
On 2006-02-25 14:48, Dannydoyle wrote:
Reminds me of the old joke about the women who won't date the guy.
he says how about a million dollars and she say sure. He says how about 10? and she says "what do you think I am, a lady of the evening?". to that the guy responds "we already know what you are, I am just negotiating a price!"
Magic shops strike me as being in this catagory. Sorry. I worked one for 10 years. The ONLY qualification for buying secrets, is to have enough money. Plain and simple. Sorry dealers but you are in the business of selling secrets to anyone willing to buy.
So when exposure is yapped about we need to start looking pretty close at ourselvs.

How many of our books are in Waldenbooks? Mark Wilson course sure is. Magic for Dummies and so forth. Forget the masked magician. OTHERS have exposed longer than he has and for less money.
So I guess we have to define "even a little exposure" now don't we?
What do we do have tests for magic sales? What about this board itself? Lots of exposure here too.
The solution to me is to realise magic is about entertaiment, and NOT about the secrets we keep. Entertain an audience and they will be forever greatfull.
Also stick with skill tricks and keep away from marketed effects and people will not really know what it is you are doing.
Just food for thought.

That was a 7 course meal in disguise - meaning - very well said !!
I concur with every single point made here.

I also agree with Greg's point on other people's original effects, most especially if they are anything remotely resembling "current".

(Let's face it - are any of Hofsinzers' descendants getting royalties from anywhere ?)
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
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Jonathan Townsend
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Have you wondered why magic is taking such a dumpster dive into the works of Robert-Houdin, Germain and Hofzinser?

Have you wondered why all the fussing over silk handkerchiefs and antique coins?

Have you wondered why the market is full of stuff that made sense fifty years ago but seems odd today?

It's just the nature of that short cut some want to take. A path where "monkey see monkey do" is the rule. Sure you can live on that garden path, and maybe even get fed some bananas for your enthusiasm.

When you can respect yourself and your own ideas enough to have respect for the works and wishes of others, there are other paths to explore in the forest we call magic.

Or you can stay on the garden path and enjoy the nostalgia show. The muggles have already found other sources of magic.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Mystician
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Can I get an "amen" to that ?!

Maybe the principles don't change that much over the decades, but the "props" sure do !
I agree, Jonathan - so many magicians still following the Robert Houdin school of magic - I think Robert Houdin himself would be disgusted to see people still doing the exact same things and maintaining the same look over a hundred years later.
He broke out of the mold, yet apparently only to create a new one. Molds can become traps.
That said, Not to go off on too much of a tangent here, but I think there is one thing that is a serious impediment for modern street magicians and the like; clothing.
This might also affect our choices when it comes to style, props, and performance.
When Houdin created the new paradigm by simply wearing gentlemen's attire, and shunning the robes of the street conjuruor, he didn't really lose anything in the way of space, or the ability to hide various gimmicks on his person.
Suits, vests, relatively loose trousers all provide lots of pockets, folds, even topits, just about as much, if not more, than the wizards' robes of old. There's been no shortage of pulls and holdouts.
Todays guys have to deal with wearing the attire of their peers: jeans and t-shirts. Depending on the current trends, jeans may be pretty loose, (to the point of hanging off yer rump... gross) or nearly skintight. There just isn't the amount of "onboard" "stash space" there used to be, especially for the younger crowd.
It's definitely a challenge for forward thinking magicians.
Just hanging out with the rest of my fellow dregs.
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karbonkid
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Good job, Johnathan! Well stated. I think that so long as people are modeling themselves after someone else, be it Blaine, Angel, or whoever is getting slagged here on the board that is current, it is an issue of someone trying to be where someone else is already.

I admit that early on I was one of the very same adopter/copiers and thank goodness I didn't turn to the internet for magic, cause I could have been easily caught up in the glitz of what is hot/now/current, etc. But along the way of your 'path' you do get a larger framework of understanding, that, I admittedly, am still working on everyday...and everyday it gets clearer. I think.
Clark
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Yes, very well stated, imitation is something that is necessary in the beginning of your development, but something that you will grow out of as you learn who you really are....in lots of different ways.

I still have a lot of my favorite performers (and their tricks) in "me" when I perform, but I think Goshman said it best on his tape. He stated that he would go to the same old magic clubs twenty years later and see the same old handlings and the same old patter. It's like he never left in the first place.


Clark
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein
Dannydoyle
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Wow it is nice to have an opinion people don't reel against!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
karbonkid
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That Goshman thing was funny as all get out, I remember watching that!

Even funnier was this one time where Penn and Teller went to Bombay or somewhere in India, and all the magicians wanted to do, over and over, was the linking rings. That's like ALL they did. So even in that light, Goshman still speaks the truth!

Then again, if you read elsewhere on the boards, maybe it's more along the lines of the reactions of the specatators that people are really jealous of. Thinking, that they could possibly garner the same reaction and actually fail miserably in the context of comparing themselves to this other person that they emulate causes a level of resentment, so that, instead of going back to the drawing board on who they actually are and how their effects relate to them, they are playing catch-up in the 'Trying to be like Criss Angel/David Blaine/Cyil Takayama' magician club.

I guess that's a problem in magic, or simply a growing pain.
Clark
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Man karbon, what a great point. I have never looked at it in that light, but I agree totally. If you are nothing more than someone's "shadow" then you are detined to do nothing but follow them around forever...in a manner of speaking.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein
karbonkid
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My concern is what happens when this style of performance dies out? Or, even better, simply vanishes altogether. What will become of the people who modeled after this person? Would they continue to model, or, would they be forced to change and grow as a magician? I mean, it's entirely funny that a fair number of people even use the same pat lines as these contemporary 'idols' of magic, in so much as that if David Blaine goes to Vietnam to perform for street children, then they will go to the jungles of the amazon to perform for the rainforest tribe folks, or mexico city street children. The level that these people go to copy these people can be extreme. Hence the resentment when they can't. Hence the bashing, etc. What do you think?
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