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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Time to educate me please - Hand position on the riffle shuffle (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

meijin
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OK..time to show my ignorance (yet again...lol!) and ask for some education.

The topic is the riffle shuffle...legit or otherwise. I was looking at a DVD last night (Paul Wilson's 5 DVD Royal Road set to be specific). I noticed when he was doing the section on the riffle shuffle, his hands were much further back on the packets of cards when performing the shuffle (further meaning the ends closest to him and not the ends being interlaced). Just prior to that, I had been watching some poker on TV (Phil Ivey killing everyone in Monte Carlo to be exact). I noticed that all of the dealers and their hands on the opposite ends of the cards. I checked some other poker programming I have recorded and it was the same way. So, to show my ignorance, I am curious as to why. Does this further away hand position give you better control to stack? What's the deal?

Thanks!

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
card cheat
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Meijin,

I, personally, riffle the cards together with my hands closer to the short ends that are being interlaced; stacking or not. I have recently decided to practice stacking from the outer ends, as it just seems to "pay" to know more than one method.

As far as I can tell, both methods are equal in quality when practiced well. If we had to find an advantage in possesing the ability to stack from the inner or the outer ends of the deck, I would say that it helps the cheat to blend in with the others at the table.

If I understand properly, you are saying that the casino dealers that you watched were riffling the cards from the inner ends. From a casino security standpoint, riffling from the inner ends of the deck hides the indices of the cards as they are being riffled, whereas riffling the deck from the outer ends leaves the left hand packet's indices vulnerable. I am not sure, but I believe that casino shuffling procedure varies from casino to casino.

I have always just felt more comfortable with handling the inner ends of the deck. With practice, we should be able to nail it both ways. It is our duty to blend in always.

CC
tommy
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The Expert at the Card Table - Erdnase - gives good instruction on the legit riffle shuffle.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
meijin
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Tommy:

I have several versions of erdnase, but I don't remember him discussing the hand positions as I have asked about.

Any insight there?

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
tommy
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Quote:
Just here we are reminded that comparatively few card players can make an ordinary riffle with any degree of grace or smoothness, and especially few understand how to square up properly. But the whole process is of the simplest nature, and so much easier than clumsy force, if the right method is adopted.
The position given for the Bottom Stock Riffle is the proper one for all ordinary occasions. (See Fig. 8.) The entire work should be done by the second fingers and thumbs. The least possible pressure should be exerted when springing the corners together, the cards being hardly perceptibly bent. When the corners are interlaced, shift the hands to the outer ends, seizing the side corners with thumbs and second fingers, and telescope the two packets about two-thirds. (See Fig. 9.) Now shift the hands again, bringing the thumbs together at inner side, and a second finger at middle of each end, and square up the deck perfectly by sliding the thumbs outward along the side, and the second fingers inwards along the ends (see Fig. 10) until they meet at the corners, squeezing or pressing the cards into position in the action.

-Erdnase-

Not sure if that helps with what your asking!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
meijin
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Kinda sorta...but not really... Smile

I am curious as to the potential strengths and weaknesses of each time of hand position and why one might be used over the other.

Sorry if I was not more clear.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
Vandy Grift
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Meijin,

If I understand your question, you are asking about grasping the cards closer to the interlacing ends or further away from the interlacing end of the pack. Is this correct? Hope this makes sense.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
J Wessmiller
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It really doesn't matter which way you do it- as long as you do it well. If you practice all methods, as I have done with bottom dealing, you find yourslf good at everything but a master of nothing.

Do what feels comfortable and stick with it. You don't have to do everything "by the book" unless
be well,
JW
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http://wessmiller.blogspot.com
card cheat
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Exactly
tommy
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I think there is some advantage in doing what I think might be called a closed shuffle. For example: A Zarrow shuffle is better closed in my opinion and the Erndnase peek is better suited to a closed shuffle than an open one.
Magicians I think sometimes use an open shuffle to stack but I think it JDLR - Just Doesn't Look Right!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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tommy
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The pics here show closed and open shuffles. The open as you can see flashes cards and at the card table you might get complaints about that and in most cases a pro dealer will use a closed shuffle. In my opinion that is.

http://www.pokerology.com/articles/shuffle/tableriffle.htm
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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meijin
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Thanks for the link tommy, that makes it more clear.

With players in the Seat 31 and Seat 310 spots, I can see why the difference between the open and closed shuffle would make a difference.

Thanks again,

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
Abracadizzle
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CC: Just a bit of FYI. There is very little deviation from a closed riffle shuffle in casinos. This is very carefully guarded against and you will never see a casino that allows for an open riffle. It gives 3rd base too much of a view.

Michael: When I first started working on my shuffle work, I used an open riffle. It made some moves very awkward and some routines harder than needed. Rollover aces is a bear from an open position and just seems a bit harder than being able to control the cards. Imagine how much harder it would be to place a long board in a specific place holding it by the opposite end. Placing the board with the end closest to you would be much easier. A block-transfer and other sleights are much better disguised with a closed shuffle. This works the best for me and I would encourage you to really work on both and see which you prefer. Lay your hands flat across the two packets and riffle with the thumbs as you apply a little downward pressure with your other fingers. Try to do it with your hands flat and not arched. It will feel strange, but please try it a few times. You will have some great control and the cards seem to flutter together smoothly. For what it's worth... Mr. Dizzle
sodman12
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I think that having your hands in closer when stacking is better since it covers the cards your holding back a little better. I hold about in the middle but I'm trying to get closer to the front
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
meijin
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Mr. Dizzle:

You said:

Quote:
Lay your hands flat across the two packets and riffle with the thumbs as you apply a little downward pressure with your other fingers. Try to do it with your hands flat and not arched.


I'll play around with this...I noticed Martin Nash has this type of method on some of his Charming Cheat tapes...I'll have to go back and take a look. Also, I think Jason England was using this on the Takedown episode when he wasn't flashing cards to Paul Wilson. I'll go have to watch that on my Tivo again to make sure.

Thanks and will let you know how this works for me.

Michael
Michael

There are two groups of people that violate basic principles in any endeavor: idiots and experts. I tend to play poker with most of the idiots!

Partial paraphrase from Jason England comment
Juble
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When retaining top stock I prefer a closed riffle to hide the block of cards better.
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