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MaxwellGrant Regular user 111 Posts |
First, I would think the core question is "does the reaction outweigh the risks?"
As to "evidence", well I know of three lawsuits from "Mr. Wizard's World of Energy" and there might be many more. Two came from kids trying to "blow up" the paint can like the presenter did in the show. It is the third that should catch your attention. In the show, a child is protected by insulation from a blow torch's flame. The line is "Billy is protected from the flame in the same way your long underwear protects you from the cold." Got it? Well, kid saw that, went home, put his longjohns on, turned on the stove, and stuck his arm in the burner. Stupid? Lack of common sense? Well, here is what the other sides lawyer said to the judge, just before the other side settled: "Your Honor, the question is not about common sense. The question is, would we be here today if they hadn't done that experiment in front of children?" Now, do whatever you wish. BUT, if a kid does something stupid, and you get sued, you could lose your house. IMHO, the effect is not worth the risk. |
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Chrystal Inner circle Canada/France 1552 Posts |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Ummm... we are talking about a hot book - not using a blow torch, blowing up paint cans or setting fire to your underpants! Whoever Mr. Wizard is should certainly not be performing for kids.
Besides, using this example is like saying you shouldn't use bunnies because someone once got mauled by a pit bull terrier! As for threats of lawsuits, maybe we shouldn't do card tricks in case someone gets a paper cut! Best, James |
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Amazing Magic Co Inner circle 1711 Posts |
I remember seeing some cool fire magic when I was a kid. While I was inspired to become a pyromaniac and opted to become magician instead. My little chick pan once set off a smoke detector ... does that count?
I know it is politically incorrect but I do use flash paper in my chick pan and can't resist my fire wallet. I thought some earlier threads on the same topic raised some valid points and I appreciate many of the opposing thoughts. I am clearly more diligent in the safety explainations and lessons of my presentation. Dan. |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
What ever you do, never, EVER, light peanut butter on fire during your show. The smoke will kill!
Steve V |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-13 20:11, Steve V wrote: LOL Does anyone have certain effects that would deem 'ok' but not others? |
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magicbob116 Inner circle 1522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-13 18:28, MaxwellGrant wrote: Sadly, too many lawyers' arguments these days are "not about common sense!" While it is tragic if a child (or anyone for that matter) gets burned seriously, there IS such a thing as PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (although you wouldn't know it these days). Should we avoid using fire, etc. in front of kids? Maybe. Maybe not. But the bigger point is that our society needs to quit looking for someone else to blame (and sue) whenever something bad happens. If you toss a piece of flash paper at a kid and it catches their hair on fire, it's your fault. If the kid plays with matches the next day and burns the house down, it's the kid's fault. Period. And perhaps the parents' as well for leaving the matches out where the kid could get them. Lawyers arguing that the kid was "just copying" what they saw someone else do might (sadly enough) be effective, but that doesn't make them right.
B. Robert Pulver
The "I Hate Card Tricks!" Book of Card Tricks Vol. 1, 2, and 3 Kards for Kids Sticky Situations Sleightly Wacky http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob |
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rossmacrae Inner circle Arlington, Virginia 2475 Posts |
Quote:
Besides, using this example is like saying you shouldn't use bunnies because someone once got mauled by a pit bull terrier! This is disingenuous at best. Of course we can point to (or fabricate) many examples of "what if" taken to ridiculous extremes, many of them affecting our presentations in silly ways. What I can't understand is the number of magicians who acknowledge "of course I was tempted to play with fire when I was young and saw a magician do it", and who STILL resist 'playing it safe' because fire effects are just so darned cool! If you don't have the entertainment skill to make up for the lack of fire in your show, or the empathy for kids not to put temptation QUITE so squarely in front of them, or the self-control to make mature (if boring and conservative) decisions when you are privileged to be put in a position of influence, or the intelligence to find creative and exciting alternatives ... ... well, golly, it doesn't matter, 'cause you have no PROOF that anyone's been hurt because you had to stand up in front of them and play with fire. All right, they're not exactly incinerating themselves in droves and saying "but the magician was OK when he did it", but this is one case where ONE really is too many. Maybe it's my Scout-leader self talking, but in Scouts we always emphasized (for good reason and after long experience) the safe way to do things that had to be done carefully, and then we were free to do those things once we had learned how not to kill ourselves. And the context of a magic show puts that temptation right out front, but does not afford any way (other than the pathetically ineffective "now don't try this at home") to handle the natural, and dangerous, curiosity we have stirred up. |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-13 23:11, rossmacrae wrote: I agree with you. Comparing apples and oranges is pointless. Quote:
What I can't understand is the number of magicians who acknowledge "of course I was tempted to play with fire when I was young and saw a magician do it", and who STILL resist 'playing it safe' because fire effects are just so darned cool! I agree with you on that one too! Just because I think ANY effect is 'darned cool' is not reason enough to include it. Otherwise my kid's show would be full of ace assemblies! Quote:
If you don't have the entertainment skill to make up for the lack of fire in your show, or the empathy for kids not to put temptation QUITE so squarely in front of them, or the self-control to make mature (if boring and conservative) decisions when you are privileged to be put in a position of influence, or the intelligence to find creative and exciting alternatives ... I have to disagree with you on that one. If including a routine makes your show better then one should consider it. Comedians often abuse prop comics for relying on props to get laughs. I've heard magicians say that same sort of things about clown costumes, live animals, balloon animals, face painting, give aways and any number of things which COULD be considered a crutch but that no right minded person would. Quote:
Never let an absence of proof get in the way of your point of view! Gosh! Fire in kid's show really IS like the hunt for WMD! |
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esther_scheffer Veteran user the netherlands 316 Posts |
Does anyone make a distinquis in the age of the children?
I think with children younger then seven what you add with fire is not so very much. And at the same time they have less developed brains and responsibility and less possibility to oversee the danger and consequences in copying it. But also in playing with fire in general (because I guess if the little ones have acces to matches/lighters etc. it is very dangerous wether they have seen a magician using fire or not. They might just as well copy lighting (and leaving, or trowing over) a candle without overseeing the consequences. Main thing I think is that (younger) kids should absolutly not have acces to matches/lighters etc. |
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esther_scheffer Veteran user the netherlands 316 Posts |
This is interesting though:
(see chrystals link): One of the reasons that during the last 30 years, burn injuries have decreased by 50 percent in the US : A decrease in smoking helps prevent burn injuries. (note:this is one of the reasons mentioned in the articel) I really would like to know wheter this is due to less children trying to copy smoking (and I mean copy smoking by using real fire, not by pretending) or by the fact that due to less smoking there is less lighters and matches lying around (in the house, on the table, in the drawer, in the pocket of a coat lying around). |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Quote:
If you don't have the entertainment skill to make up for the lack of fire in your show, or the empathy for kids not to put temptation QUITE so squarely in front of them, or the self-control to make mature (if boring and conservative) decisions when you are privileged to be put in a position of influence, or the intelligence to find creative and exciting alternatives ... Ross, Now why would you suddenly want to get all nasty when we were all having a good discussion? It's usually a sign that your argument is weak when you start hurling insults. On second thoughts, you are completely right... as you say, I have no entertainment skill, empathy for kids, self-control or intelligence. Oh yes, and I also like to beat the little ***s with a big stick when they get out of line. Best, James |
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Steve V Inner circle Northern California 1878 Posts |
I don't use fire because of the whining parents not the kids.
Steve V |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
I personally don’t use fire and wouldn’t recommend it for preschools. But I really see no harm in using a hot book, a quick flash from a dove pan, etc, in front of older kids. I would think a seven or eight year old would know that fire is hot. Again, I think it’s mainly in how you present it.
All these crazy stories we hear about magicians hurting kids with fire or burning the place down are crazy performers. Crazy people don’t need to play with magic must less fire. Is flash paper considered fire by the audience? They have no idea what it is are where it came from. To them it was a flash or something. In years past, I have been asked was that real fire. My answer was always, no it just looked like fire. If anybody complained about a quick flash, it would be “one of those” parents. One in (high number) thousands. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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Zamboni New user Australia 59 Posts |
I don't use fire primarily because of the huge increase in insurance premiums if I do. The question of appropriateness is thus sadly circumvented. You may say there is a reason for the higher premiums, however the insurance companies don’t ask whether I am using a flame thrower or a hot book on stage.
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Reasons against using fire and questions that arise as provided by Café members
1) Kids might copy. Do they copy? Does whether they copy rely on simply the inclusion of fire or how it is presented? Do other acts with animals, ropes, scissors etc also lead to copying? 2) Parents THINK kids will copy? Do they? Has anyone had a complaint from a parent? Would a change in presentation change the parents POV? 3) Parents THINK house and children might be in danger Do they? Has anyone had a complaint from a parent? Would a change in presentation change the parents POV? 4) Insurance Premiums go up. IS they inclusion of fire worth the extra fee? 5) Fire is crutch Why is it a crutch more then any other style of magic? 6) It is messy with fluids and fuels and smells Are there ways to contain it? Are their non smelly options? |
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Maro Anglero Loyal user FLORIDA 248 Posts |
I use Fire magic in many of my children show, Like auto fire dove pan and quick fire to a rose, I never say to them watch me light this paper and see the magic rose appear. Its how you use the fire with the magic. The only effect I took out of the children show was the sword thru neck, it’s the only effect that I felt children would have emulate, one nightmare I had was good enough for me to stop performing it for children.
I like doing double sword thru neck for the adult shows. Maro
For the Magician: The hard must become habit, The habit must become easy, The easy must become Beautiful
Doug Henning |
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The Great Smartini Inner circle 2280 Posts |
Nicholas,
not sure what you mean by your comments... "Whilst I appreciate your point of view and respect your right to an opinion, you come across as pretty didactic in your post. There is no need to be sanctimonious and tell people what they can and can not do. " My point of view comes from someone who has the training, education, experience and background to make comment on this particular topic. I've been a professional educator for the past 10 years and in addition to this have a graduate degree in education. I've done the library/school assembly thing for awhile, provide professional development to teachers as well as supervise student-teachers. Accordingly, I would suggest to you that this provides me with some insight into what's being discussed here. In my professional opinion the message that's being given to children (when fire effects are used) are inconsistent and without any redeemable merits. You may hear from parents, teachers or administrators about the use of fire or other "PC" items or you may not. Just because you've haven't heard from someone about it doesn't mean that they agree with your use of fire. How many times do people avoid conflict and not really say what they mean? Why would anyone want to risk encouraging a child to play with fire? Why would anyone want to risk offending a potential client because of an ill-considered choice of effects? Is the hot book or flash paper really that amazing? It was to early man but isn't it time that we evolved and moved on? Smartini (but only in name and not always...at least not according to my wife!) |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-03-14 19:17, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote: OOH! OOH!! I want a fire crutch!
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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Amazing Magic Co Inner circle 1711 Posts |
A fire crotch? ... Oh, I'm sorry .. I misread.
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