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The Great Smartini Inner circle 2280 Posts |
Probably not a birthday party kind of thing...strolling?...again, I'm not sure how the fire is actually controlled...I do know that if I was the one wearing it would certainly be under my "control" without my hands even touching it! anyone else know anything about these hats?...I'm assuming that they're fairly rare
Smartini |
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gerard1973 Special user Michigan, U.S.A. 688 Posts |
Kids do like Fire Magic. I don’t see any problem with Fire Magic as long as you do it safely. Flash Paper, Flash Cotton and Flash String are safe to use if used CORRECTLY.
I could be wrong but I’m sure that I read somewhere that there are no laws, regulations or fire codes against using Flash Paper, Flash Cotton and Flash String providing they are used correctly. You can cause a fire and burn yourself with ANY kind of fire so you do have to use common sense and be careful.
"Confusion is not magic."
Dai Vernon |
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magicbob116 Inner circle 1522 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-02 12:28, gerard1973 wrote: Uh, oh... you've done it now! Prepare to be severely chastised.
B. Robert Pulver
The "I Hate Card Tricks!" Book of Card Tricks Vol. 1, 2, and 3 Kards for Kids Sticky Situations Sleightly Wacky http://www.magicnook.com/magicbob |
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John Bowlin Special user Maryland 827 Posts |
I too use the hot book in my shows for the same reasons James does and it works very well for me. In defense of this use of fire....
kids never see the source it is very controlled and brief kids can open books all day long and never get a spark inspiring kids to open books aint a bad thing! Do the fire opponents forget what usually occurs at almost every Bday party I've ever been to? Mom or Dad openly get out matches or a lighter and proceed to light multiple fire sticks(candles) and then encourage the child to interact with the fire by blowing it out. Should these parents be chastized as well? I have no problem with assuming that it is every parents responsibility to teach their child to respect fire and know what it can do when neglected. In my omniscient opinion any person that lights a cigarrete in front of any child and proceeds to puff away is a far bigger danger to any child than the magician with a hot book. But I don't preach to them...Darwinism still works to some degree If you really want to protect all the children out there...get rid of your car and never drive again. Anyone know how many children were severely injured or killed in car accidents this past year in the US? Over 40,000. Did you know that child pedestrian fatalities are 4.5 times the normal rate on halloween night? Should we just ban halloween? So when I read these excerpts from burn units in defense of no fire at kids magic shows...please...let's look at the world in a proper perspective. Why aren't thousdands of people in the streets protesting against automobiles?...Because it would inconvenience "me"! So for those of you that don't use fire in your acts...thank you...it makes me more novel and I'll never criticize you for it. Even those guys that use those flesh tearing vicious bunnies...hey..more power to ya. A little common sense goes a long way in protecting everyone. |
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psyrules510 New user 51 Posts |
I scared a kid really bad with a flash gun. I told him to look at my hand (from the side of course) and I shot it. He was crying for hours. Of course I had to try to convince his parents that I didn't hurt him. Im never doing that again.
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ChristianR Veteran user 356 Posts |
Usually schools don't allow any fire. So if you are doing a show and a school authority is in the audience, will they hire you? I do not know the answer to this but anyone have any ideas?
Tarbell!
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
I use the Hot Book in every school show I do and I've never had any problems.
A picture of me holding the hot book with flames coming out is in my marketing materials, so it obviously hasn't stopped the schools booking me. Best, James |
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Popo Loyal user Valparaiso, IN 219 Posts |
I used to do a vanishing candle routine in birthday parties. I would light the candle and my thumb would catch on fire (thumb tip) before hand I would warn the kids that adults are the only people who should be lighting anything as it is dangerous. I have a Master's degree in psychology. I believe that there is a balance to everything. You do have to weigh out whether the effect derived is worth the risk. Anytime one uses fire, no matter how or how small, there is a risk whether we like it or not. People have discussed entertainment vs. easy flashes and props. I say that entertainment is in the eyes of the audience. I can do the greatest card tricks in the world but those four year olds in the daycare will be off in another world. I'm not advocating fire for a daycare here, I'm just stating that entertainment value is what the audience decides, not us.
My last point/question is this: As we talk about safety, do any of us who use fire in our shows take along any type of fire extinguisher? I know I did not but thinking about it now scares me some. It is just a preparedness thing I guess. Thanks for listening. POPO |
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Fire burned kids. Magicians shouldn't use fire. I do see the point that kids might emulate me and get hurt. That is why I blindfold my son when I drive him places so he doesn't try to drive himself. I don't have him watch cartoons because I'm afraid he will drop an anvil on someone's head. I don't cook around him so I don't tempt him with fire. I never vaccinate him because I am afraid it could lead to drug use. We don't have electricity, because he may just try to electrocute himself. I never drink from a bottle in front of him because it could start a drinking problem. I never bath him because he might go skinny dipping and drowned. I don't let him run because he may run with scissors. I never let him use a squirt gun because it might lead to real gun use. We don't eat meat, because it could encourage him to be a cannibal. . . . Gotta draw the line somewhere . . . .
If someone feels strongly about not using fire, great. It is your opinion, not a fact. Voicing your opinion and insulting people are two different things, and it is GENERALLY a sign of a weak argument. If an argument is well thought out there is no reason to go off topic and make personal attacks. Insulting people and saying they are defensive is just plain rude, and I think rude behavior is much more emulated than fire. It appears some folks think they are the only one's that have ever considered this topic, or is it that they are so much more intelligent than the rest of us? Perhaps they have have more experience than the rest of us? There are intelligent considerate, experienced and educated people on both sides of this and to come off like a preacher is pretty cheeky. You got me reaching into my wallet to put some money in the collection plate. Smartini PLEASE don't flaunt your education because, I can assure you, there are people here with far more education and far more experience that disagree with you. I personally think that such strongly worded statements shows a certain lack of respect for children. Just like if you tell a child they are stupid they will become less intelligent; if you treat them without respect they will live down to your expectations. Yes, kids get burned, and it is horrible. Kids also get ito all sorts of accidents that can be horrible too. The reasoning presented against the use of fire is running more on emotion than logic - not saying that it cannot be presented logically. Hey our VP shot some one, should we blame Penn & Teller for catching the bullet????? It is easy to scare people, and Ross, you use fire as a scare tool to get people to hire you instead of the "other guy" who uses fire ( http://goodmagic.com/magician/10reas.htm see # 10). That's fine, be creative, and demolish the competition (isn't that what you said on your DVD?). Actually this is a good reason not to use fire, 'cause someone will tell your potential clients how dangerous you are! As long as one is responsible, the only reason I can see not to use a little fire is public perception. 1) We have to take care and make sure what we are doing really is not dangerous. 2) We need to present it in a way that doesn't encourage kids to be fire bugs. Having a surprise flame or flash is different than visibly taking a lighter to some flash paper or flammable fluid (even after warning them). How is that for a first post guys? |
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James Munton Inner circle Dallas, TX 1199 Posts |
Welcome to the Café, CaptainKid!
I think I am going to enjoy reading your future posts! Best, James |
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The Great Smartini Inner circle 2280 Posts |
CaptKid,
Since you've asked for feedback here goes...your first post has a number of errors in logic (first year actually) and completely miss the point of what some of us were trying to say...my position is this...IMHO...fire should only be used in a routine that has been very very well thought out...Payne's routine with Run Dragon Run would fit into this category...if you're doing fire or playing with fire because you can then...IMHO...it may send the wrong message...as for flaunting I shared my educational background, training and experiences because many people don't consider the message that's being sent...not for everyone but for some...this is a do as I say not do as I do...I'm used to having to rationalize and explain my philosophy in this area in the context of dealing with new student-teachers...this isn't flaunting it but rather explaining my background as a professional educator and professional performer...I'm in the staffroom long after you've gone...the performance is talked about long after the magii/etc. leaves and you may think that all is well but in fact they didn't agree with what you did...also, too polite to tell you this...another case in point...getting kids all excited and participating in an assembly is good...for some administrators/staff this is bad because they have to take the students back to their classrooms and deal with the behaviour...don't invite that guy back he gets them too wild...this isn't a good thing but that's the way it is...no magic answers to all this and I'm sure you (or I) could provide alternative scenarios which would contradict what I'm saying...bottom line is that you need to use fire carefully as you have a responsibility to the children as well as to yourself so that you don't compromise future bookings because someone else doesn't think you should be playing with fire in front of kids Smartini ps. in case anyone thinks I'm a PC, liberal know it all on this matter...I'm the guy that bought the fire top hat that was recently on ebay...it's a really nice one of a kind item and I have absolutely no idea of how I might use it...why?...I do read what people have to say and reflect upon it...Payne's post on his Run Dragon Run routine made me reconsider my position...hmmmm!? |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-12 18:47, The Great Smartini wrote: Wow! Some people actually listen to what I say! I'll have to watch what I write out here from now on.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Hi James! I REALLY like your personal web site & character. Very original. Wish the idea was mine! *G*
I have been fighting a strong urge to flame (looking for kids) - I may need some help to stay civil . . . . . oh no, I am turning green . . . . *G* -Oh, I guess that is just the web page . . . "The Great Smartini" I'm glad your opinion is humble, I'm sorry I missed that point! And yes, the constant repetition IS flaunting it, and you should know that! (you do have a Masters as you have said or eluded to in nearly every post). I do think your comment about getting kids riled up is a very important comment.(See, something positive!) On the other hand I have many schools that BEG me to do a full fire routine (eat, blow, light myself on fire) too. You need to give the school what they want, or more particularly whomever does the hiring. Basic business sense. As for using fire only in routines that are well thought out . . . are you implying that you use some routines that are not well thought out? Ok, I have been trying to hold back but "Since you've asked for feedback here goes...your first post has a number of errors in logic (first year actually)" Do you really know much about logic???? I know I do. If so, what are those "errors"? Can you diagram them for me, since I obviously failed logic? *L* I also know what goes into a Masters in Ed. Lets be real. Having an education has very little to do with intelligence. It is the big secret everyone with post-grad work knows, but hides from those less educated. I know lots of very stupid people with doctorates and met some amazing people than never finished high school. You know the saying: "If you don't know someone with a higher degree that is not so swift, then maybe it is you . . ." Here on the internet, it means even less. I don't expect most of us here are your first-year teachers, no need to talk down. Having the name "The Great Smartini" probably does you more harm than good, especially lecturing others here. Unless your stage character is pretty dumb, I’m sure it flies over with the kids like a lead balloon. As for you being a PC liberal. I'm not PC, but I am a liberal, a thinking liberal. A few quotes from your past about fire & kids: “Don't do it and please don't tell me you've talked/done it in front of teacher/principal - it still doesn't make it right!” “Hot book and flash paper would have to be much more magical effects if I was to consider using them”. “and completely miss the point of what some of us were trying to say...my position is this...IMHO...fire should only be used in a routine that has been very very well thought out” Your point seems to be swaying to public opinion, Smartini. This comment I find Very amusing: “Hot book and flash paper would have to be much more magical effects if I was to consider using them”. - Does this mean IF the effect is good enough, it is ok to fry those kids to a crisp??? If you really think there is a chance they will emulate you, why would you do it at all? Nicholas J. Johnson, James Munton, Payne and others ALL seem to differ with you. Who are the “some of us” you are speaking about in your last post? Ross, to his credit has stuck to his guns and believes fire is always bad with kids. Nicholas J. Johnson, James Munton, Payne and others have stuck to the opinion that responsible use is ok. You are a ping pong ball. A little hint. I really don’t think anyone cares about your education. A masters is not that impressive. Hey it is great you have worked so hard, and you should be proud, but really now . . . don’t confuse a masters with being a master in something. If you had a couple doctorates then maybe . . . depending on the field and the university. (Side note: I did put my way through quite a number of years of school on a fishing boat. Much of the work was filling bait cans. I was the best baiter on the boat so I guess you could say I was a master . . .er . . .er nevermind)Your opinion is valued when you give reasoning for it, and maybe some examples or reputable studies. That is all that matters. If you can do that I don’t care if you are working on your 10th doctorate or didn’t make it out of 7th grade. 10 years experience doesn’t fly too well either. I have some acquaintances that have far more experience - unfortunately I think their experience was pretty bad . . . Saying that I made 1st year logic mistakes is really pretty funny. My wife read this and agreed with yours. Last thing - you use IMHO a lot. We all know you are not humble. I doubt if ANY good magician really is. We are in this, among other things, for the attention. We all think we are great. A few of us really are great. You seem to think if you use "IMHO" then you can say anything. Remember, we are not your first-year teachers - you can't baffle us with B.S. (B.A. or M.Ed.) I do think your opinion is valuable, the insults and the continual preoccupation with your education is more amusing than helpful. Give us the reasons for your belief and don't make us wade through the you know what! |
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The Great Smartini Inner circle 2280 Posts |
CaptainKid,
I am glad that I gave you something to talk to your wife about. Seriously, if you're spending your time reading Café posts with your wife then you've got yourself quite a good thing. Also, I do truly hope many more schools beg you to do fire routines...I hope that you eat, blow, suck, swallow and light yourself on fire to your hearts content if that's what makes you happy. As for my background I only mention it because of it's relevance to the topic at hand. You see when someone has the training, education and reputation as an expert or professional in the field then that's kind of important to the argument at hand. Again, this is first year logic/critical thinking and when you attack this you employ logical fallacy known as Ad hominem abusive. Your probably not interested to know that my Masters research topic was the educational use of magic and I have been encouraged to consider doing a doctoral program. Not meant to impress you or anyone else because I know and understand that there are many very highly talented people here at the Café. My point is simply that I have some insight into what I'm saying. I'm employed as a professional at the place where you want to do your little show. You can make all of the illogical arguments about someone knowing someone else who has an advanced degree and is lacking in common sense...but so what? It proves nothing more than once again you're argument form is invalid because your premises are invalid. Think straw man think. The Great Smartini is my stage name...am I to assume that you're a real "Captain" or a "Kid" because of your Café name? I mean why Captain Kid? Why not Captain Annoying or Captain Crunch? And is that a real bird on your shoulder? Where do you keep that thing anyways...in a cage? Forget fire...I want to talk to you about keeping an exotic animal in captivity...bad Captain! |
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KC Cameron Inner circle Raleigh, North Carolina 1944 Posts |
Ping Pong,
First, let me set a few things straight. Intelligent individuals are not impressed with education, wealth, social standing or success. Some of us are more fortunate than others in each of these fields, but that fortune does not make our ideas, morals or values any better than the next. It does not make us better performers or better people either. We can all think of magicians of great public acclaim that are really not that talented in magic. We can all also think of magicians who are incredible, yet are fairly unknown to the public and magicians in general. The only thing intelligent people are impressed with in these forums are ideas and support for those ideas. I am secure enough with myself that your insults are funny. Unfortunately, some can take your thoughtless comments to heart and you can do a lot of damage. Magicians, in general, have huge egos. I know I do, and it is obvious you do. Unfortunately many feed those huge egos by stepping on others. not exactly ethical, but it makes them feel good and more secure. Am I stepping on you - yes, but I think most will agree it is a bit different. Another problem I have, it seems that you believe because this is a “Children’s Magic” thread that we are pathetic, uneducated cretins (perhaps you think this for other reasons). I take offense to that, and I am sure many others do as well. Most of the people here actually seem concerned about children. Ross, for example, disagrees with me violently on this subject, but I know he has a real concern for them and I do greatly respect him for that. Your posts on this subject come off as rather academic at best. I don’t see any passion for children, or magic, but a lot of passion for your degree and the letting everyone know it by pounding your 10 year master program into our heads. I am generally a lurker because of magicians like yourself. There is some great experience here, so why don't we shut up and learn? I know I am. This will probably be my last post here concerning you, no matter what childish insults you may sling. I am growing weary with you. “SO SOMEONE WHO HAS READ, STUDIED, WRITTEN AND BEEN EVLUATED ON THEIR LOGIC IN THE CONTEXT OF A UNIVERSITY FOR NEARLY 10 YEARS WON'T HAVE MORE INSIGHT INTO THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM THAN SOMEONE WHO HASN'T ENGAGED IN THE SAME PROCESS? THERE IS A FAR CRY BETWEEN HAVING DONE A SHOW IN A SCHOOL AND SOMEONE WHO WORKS AS A PROFESSIONAL IN A SCHOOL SETTING...HUGE DIFFERENCE...FOR YOU TO THINK OTHERWISE IS NOTEWORTHY... “ - Of course there is a big difference between someone who "does" as opposed to teaching, or being a student! Education is the degree all the super intelligent people go after! It is well known to be absolutely GRUELING. It is the only field that has their own classes such as “Math for Teachers” because they want it to be incredibly hard to get a degree in teaching! If I wanted to impress someone on my intelligence (as opposed to showing them my caring personality and love for children), I would flaunt it. Wave it to the heavens! Look, I’m an important person! I have a Masters in Education, and it was very hard to get! It took me 10 years! Considering a Doctorate in Law takes seven, a Masters in Education must have really had you sweating! Actually, I don’t think 10 years at studying gives much insight on how the system really works in ANY field. The fact it took you 10 years to get a masters makes me think you didn’t want to get a degree and get out into the real world, but stay in a university cocoon forever. You should have a doctorate at least after 10 years! Now your comment about how a school administrators are “nice” and do not tell a performer how to make a show better suited for the school - now that comment is worth it’s weight in gold. It is very revealing - don’t you work for - nah, never mind. Alas, I tip my hand a bit, since you seem to think education is impressive. (For all others, believe me, it is NOT impressive and please don’t think that I think it is impressive. It IS rather expensive, and not always worth the expense! *L*) “Seriously, if you're spending your time reading Café posts with your wife then you've got yourself quite a good thing.” Yes, it is nice to retire in your 30’s and do what is fun while helping the world a little bit. Alas, my wife is only 27, but she is only working her practice part time now, so we can have more time with our autistic son. - So yes, I have nearly all the time I want, yes it is nice - what is your excuse? “You see when someone has the training, education and reputation as an expert or professional in the field then that's kind of important to the argument at hand. Again, this is first year logic/critical thinking and when you attack this you employ logical fallacy known as Ad hominem abusive.” LOL - Ad hominem abusive is when you attack someone with insults as opposed to logically dissecting their argument. I have not disagreed with your *last* conclusion that fire is ok if done responsibility. I have not made ANY logical arguments for my position at all - which makes this whole thing so funny! I have only pointed out where you have used “ad hominem- abusive”, “post hoc ergo propter hoc” and “demagogy - false authority” and "straw man" to support your conclusion (go ahead, google them!). I may be a lot older than you, but I’m not senile! “ . . . Masters research topic was the educational use of magic” I think that is great! I mean, pick a topic your professors know very little or nothing about to write a thesis . . . absolute GENIUS! I wish I had thought of that! “. . .I have been encouraged to consider doing a doctoral program.” I hate to break this to you . . . but government workers are difficult to fire. If one wants to get rid of someone working for the government, a common tactic is to encourage them to go back to school. Now, judging by your posts I am sure your fellow workers love you and would rather keep you around so this is not true in your case. “Think straw man think.” is where one misrepresents an opponent's position as something easier to refute. Exactly where have I done this?? ONCE AGAIN, I do NOT refute your *final* conclusion - just the way you got there, and the other conclusions you had. I have been careful to quote you, and I don’t think I have misrepresented the position you have put forth. On the other hand, it is very easy to see you have used straw man a bit and ad hominem -abusive a lot. Would you like me to point them out? I would like you to point out mine - really! (Note this is the second time I have asked) Ok, I have to break another thing to you. Logic is a math credit, and MANY, MANY, MANY people seeking a degree in teaching take Logic because they think it will be much easier than taking the incredibly hard “Math for Teachers”. It probably is. My undergrad is in philosophy, and logic was required. Well, it was an incredibly easy class. The professors would not stop moaning on how they had to “dumb” things down because so many students were taking it because they were poor at mathematics. This is true in most universities. Was it true at yours? “I to assume that you're a real "Captain" or a "Kid" because of your Café name?” As for being a Captain when it comes to military rank, no, not since 1986. As for being a master of a sea going vessel, not since 1990. As for being a kid, I am young at heart! Your sarcasm makes me think that you do not think that you are a “Smartini”??? Is your chosen name meant in jest? I was under the impression you really thought you were smart. Sorry Ping Pong. “Why not Captain Annoying or Captain Crunch?” Well “Captain Annoying” is too much like “Smartini” and I would not want people to get mixed up. “Captain Crunch” is trade marked and I do not wish to be sued, even with my wife defending me, the cereal company could easily drowned is in paperwork. “Captain Kid” is nice because 1) it has a familiar ring to it 2) Captain is a common “rank” for children’s characters (think Captain Kangaroo, Captain America . . .) 3) “Kid” shows my focus (such as Smartini shows yours). I want people to see I am interested in children, not on impressing them. “And is that a real bird on your shoulder? Where do you keep that thing anyways...in a cage? Forget fire...I want to talk to you about keeping an exotic animal in captivity...bad Captain!” Boy, you sure are good at diverting discussions - AGAIN! That “THING” is Jax, my Greenwing Macaw. Not that it matters, but she is obviously not on my shoulder. (The shoulder is the thing directly below the neck.) While I do agree that parrots should not be kept as pets because most people have no idea how to keep them, so parrots literally go crazy through: 1) malnutrition, 2) lack of stimulation, 3) lack of companionship. 4) and way too small housing. I figure having her in a loving environment with lots of stimulation, a cage I can walk into, excellent diet, and the occasional free flight is better than letting her die. She is a rescue bird. Obviously you think that “thing” is better off dead. You have such a wonderful choice of words to express your love and respect for exotics. “Thing” what a beautiful word! The use of it so encapsulates your respectful, caring personality! You are such a good spokesman for the school system! When I think of all the children's lives you touch, directly or indirectly, it makes me want to cry. You care so much about children, animals - and are even so open to alternative lifestyles: (“I hope that you eat, blow, suck, swallow and light yourself . . .”)! I feel your superior MUST see this in you too, which is why you are being encouraged to seek higher education! Your avatar of you flying up high in the air, head with a smile, well that is such a revealing picture! Your a star! While I am sure I can find your work with a little digging, it would be soooo much easier if you gave us your work address so we could show your boss your wonderful, well articulated, respectful, caring posts. I am sure she/he would be proud! You might even get promoted out of the jurisdiction! Stop sweating, I won't - just having a bit of fun with you! Pong, you really should be more careful what you write. It is very revealing - more than you think. When a person used IMHO very much, we know it is a lie. When they prop up their statements with their credentials, we know they FEEL lacking in intelligence (feel is the key word)or their argument is weak. When they sling childish insults it shows lack of thought on the subject, too much emoting. Really, if you are going to insult me, have some creativity! At least then we can all get more of a chuckle! Different subject: Google "failure" and click "I'm feeling lucky". Guess what came up?? No, it was George Bush's Bio! I think someone may have an agenda. *L* (Ping Pong, you probably think this song, ummm comment, was about you . . your so . . . well, it wasn't, just an ammusing comment.) Well James, no more entertainment from me today! I would really like to read some intelligent discussion on this, so I will bow out, and hopefully so will our educated “friend” Ping Pong. BTW, the word for today is “cranio-rectal”. Ping Pong, before you look it up and come back with an enlighted comment like "it isn't in the dictionary", it isn't in a dictionary. I made it up. Bye for now! |
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