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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Infrared markings in casinos (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Cliff Rusnick
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I read that some casinos actually put infrared ink on their cards as a cheating prevention measure so that the eye in the sky can read the top card and make sure that the dealer is not dealing seconds, centers or base, or that no mucks are taking place.. is this true?

I also read that this ink is very expensive, and seems that it would be a waste since casinos only used decks once before they are discarded... also this would mean that when you buy the decks from the gift shop in the casino, that you actually have a marked deck that you could read with infrared glasses or camera.

I highly doubt this is true.. but if it is.. this would be the greatest find in the magic community since fish medicine.
Expertmagician
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I wish that was true...if casinos used IR inks on their cards I could win a fortune since the same filtered sunglasses which read luminous will also be able to read most IR inks.

In addition, IR inks are made by disolving crystals in alcohol which brings us back to the problem of alcohol burning the finish on cards.

It is possible to use some IR inks which reflect IR light in the 750+nm frequency range. But, they can be read by the casinos as well as anyone who has an IR camera. And alcohol will still be an issue.

Bottom line: Casinos would be stupid to do this since the marks may be used against them....I don't think costs would be an issue, if the casinos thought it would help their edge or prevent theft/fraud.
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Chris Stolz
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I should also point out that while seconds are possible (although not easy!) to deal from a shoe, centers and bottoms are not.

The security personel on the floor does a lot of the dealer and player watching. A lot of the camera work is for entrances, exits, the bar and unusual moves towards a bet etc. You will find that most of the cheating done on the floor is caught by the security officer standing right behind the cheater.
tommy
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Some use it on the face of cards.

http://www.laserlocktech.com/productinfo.html
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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If you are going to start with a laser...you might as well bring in a UV light. The problem is that the marks become visable to ANYONE who happens to be looking at the cards when the laser or black light is shining on their respective inks.

In reality, you want to be the only person to see the marks. In addition, using a laser or UV light may be tricky...in my humble opinion.
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tommy
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E.M

I am not sure you understand but I am not sure I do either. Smile
I assume : The casino mark the casinos cards with a laserlock mark in the same place and that does not tell them the name of the card but only that cards belong to the casinos. This tells them if their cards have been switched for marked cards maybe. Same sort of thing with their dice and chips. A UV mark could easily be replicated but the laserlock is more secure.
I have not read the thing to tell the truth I am just guessing.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Cliff Rusnick
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Is all infrered ink made the same way? I saw some demo video of someone who marked cards using an infrared ink, appearently he got his ink in a powder form which was to be diluted in something else... maybe water?

what kind of crystals are desolved into the alcohol anyway? I'm curious to try this just on... random things such as paper.. a while ago I actually made a pair of infrared glasses and was having fun writing on black material with a marker.. then reading it through the glasses (the only way you could see it)

and yea the filters are almost the same.. the way I made my glasses though was to take 3 red filters and 2 blue filters and layer them up. it looks almost pitch black but whem you put them on so that no light enters the glasses, it's pretty fun to look around with those things.
sodman12
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The only way to get a marked deck in a casino would have to be a 3 way operation
1) come up with a new marking system
2)come up with a way to view it
3)go to work for the card company

then retire. now here there are 2 options you can retire in 1)jail or the one I prefer aspen.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
tommy
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Getting a maked deck into a casino poker game in some casinos might not be as hard you think.
Some I know use KEM cards with no logo and the dealer changes every 30 minutes or so and takes his deck with him and then returns with it. I have been in a dealers rest room and seen their cards just left on a shelf while they are having a coffee the other side of the room. I have even been in a casino and lent a couple of decks before the poker started to sit there with a pal and play Kalooki.
The BlackJack cards are a different story - plenty of security with them. The thing is some casinos do not seem to care about the security at poker because it's not their money at stake.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Patrick Differ
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Something in the back of my mind tells me that a casino might use IR to identify the cards as theirs, but never to determine the value of the card.
Will you walk into my parlour? said the Spider to the Fly,
Tis the prettiest little parlour that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlour is up a winding stair,
And I've a many curious things to show when you are there.

Oh no, no, said the little Fly, to ask me is in vain,
For who goes up your winding stair
-can ne'er come down again.
Cliff Rusnick
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Has anyone ever tried looking for any type of marking anywhere on casino decks?

I should hit up my local casino and buy a deck to check it out
sodman12
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They might take them off at least for the ones they sale. just a thought
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
JasonEngland
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I have several decks of UV marked cards in my collection that use bar-code style markings to determine suit and value.

The decks are used with the Mindplay system for a variety of reasons.

1: A Mindplay reader can read the marks and nearly instantly determine if a card is missing, or duplicated in a deck of cards. This of course has some pretty serious implications for anyone trying to remove and replace cards secretly.

2. The Mindplay readers can determine the exact order of the deck before the dealer deals. There are numerous implications of this type of information being hooked up to a software package on the casino's side of things. For instance, the casino could use this information to determine an early shuffle point (in Blackjack) if they so desired. It also would allow them to determine if someone's betting patterns were following the approximate distribution of aces (shuffle-tracking). Finally of course, they could combine a system like Mindplay with RFID-embedded chips to precisely gauge a card-counter's effectiveness. If they determined that a person was a counter but was not beating the game, they'd let him play. If they determined that a counter was good enough to make a dent in their profits, they'll bar him.

I've actually seen the Mindplay machines in casino's, and have even been giveng a demonstration of the machine's abilities on the floor of a casino. The GM removed a card from the deck, shuffled, and placed the remainder in the Mindplay reader. The machine almost instantly signaled that a card was missing, and a tiny screen revealed the name of the missing card.

Jason

PS: Incidentally, the cards are bar-coded at the very edge of the face on the short and long ends. The reader bevels the deck and exposes a tiny bit of the face of all 52 cards as it reads. The UV marks are plainly visible if you shine a UV light on them (even a cheap blacklight works).
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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So it UV not IR Jason or both UV and IR? I have read about IR bar codes but not UV. You can get both in the same ink.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
iamslow
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Quote:
On 2006-03-18 22:53, tommy wrote:
Some use it on the face of cards.

http://www.laserlocktech.com/productinfo.html

Hi Tommy, I think a lot of casino's use this technology on their chips and dice more than they do with their cards...It would just be too expensive specially if the cards are changed every 8 hours...another disadvantage to using this technology in cards is the Cheater has access to the same markings jsut like when cheaters use juice, it becomes an all access pass... Most importantly, how would you feel if you were a whale and you found out that the casino you love to donate money to knows the identity of the cards before you?? So as common sense dictates, this tecnology is definately possible, but the possibility of it seeing the tables would probably be unlikely... just my 2 cents.
"Everyone is tough till they get punched in the face" Mike Tyson
JasonEngland
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Iamslow,

These cards (UV markings on the faces) ARE in use in casinos all around the world. They aren't on every table, or in every casino, but Mindplay is a large company, and their share of the casino market is only going to get larger (or at least, similar technologies' shares will only get larger).

The whales will probably react in the same manner that they've always reacted...with indifference. Afterall, the casinos clean and repair the roulette wheel, provide the dice, repair slot machines and oversee the eprom devices that reside in every one, and have dealers that physically manipulate the cards every single week, 24 hours a day.

The casinos will downplay the potential inside cheating angles associated with knowing the order of the deck, and will sell the public like crazy on the benefits of keeping outside cheaters (muckers and switchers) away from the tables.

End result: the average gambler (and this includes gamblers that are very wealthy but otherwise unremarkable) won't care a bit.

Jason

PS: Tommy, the marks are readable with a UV light. I haven't tried anything in the IR spectrum. Sometimes a digital camera can detect things in the IR spectrum, but might sees nothing on these cards.
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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Thanks.

I did read there is a court case going on about the mindplay thing as in effect the casino are using marked cards.

There are invisible markings that cannot be replicated or even found by forensic people if they were to look at them. However, I am not sure if it has ever been used on cards. It is used for anti counterfeit. A dedicated electronic device as small as a key ring reads it. The stuff is so small that it is smaller than bacteria and once it is put on anything it merges with the normal bacteria of whatever it is put on to and cannot distinguished from normal bacteria that is found on everything. It comes either as a dust like stuff and can be put into ink or whatever. It would be a great for marking cards but you need to run the machine over the stuff to read it or the other way around. Even the people who make it cannot tell it is on the product only the customer with his dedicated machine/s can read it. Another customer can not read another customers mark with his machine. It is literally impossible for any at all to find the mark without your machine. It will be used on everything in future and is probably on something your wearing right now. The people making it will put the machine/reader in anything you want but the smallest thing I seen is a key ring maybe it could be put in a finger ring. It could certainly be put into a dealing shoe. Obviously if they found you with the reader that would be a problem but I am saying categorically that no one can find the marks if they just examined the cards, not the gaming commission or anyone else. It is all quite scary and it is said to be real cheap per item.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Lee Darrow
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I would suggest that you gentlemen read the Nevada Gaming Commission Regulations regarding the use of marked cards.

Just a comment.

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
Expertmagician
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Somebody has to be wrong here...I am hearing 2 messages:

1) Mindplay marks cards for casino identification ... but, not to determin the card's value.

2) Some people say that Mindplay can determine the order of the cards.

As far as I can tell you can't have it both ways...either the cards are marked in the same place for identification or they are marked in different places so the casino knows the order of the cards.

Am I missing something ?

I have not looked in Mindplay yet...no time Smile
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magicmind
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Mindplay is working on a cardshoe that reads...check out the patent info:

http://www.freshpatents.com/Apparatus-an......1965.php
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