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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Gambling Spot » » Infrared markings in casinos (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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Expert

Yes we are taking of two different things but both using invisible casino marks so we can have it both ways in fact there are more ways than two that casinos mark cards and mind is just one. (a) Mind play does ID each card etc. (b) Other casinos just mark the cards with invisible security ink simply to id them as casino cards. (c) You can buy security cards with the face colors printed in secruty ink And so on. The original question is not about mind play in particular but "Infrared markings in casinos" The link I gave for example is not mind play.

http://www.laserlocktech.com/productinfo.html

Hope that helps.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Craig Krisulevicz
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Quote:
On 2006-03-18 22:36, chris_stolz wrote:
I should also point out that while seconds are possible (although not easy!) to deal from a shoe, centers and bottoms are not.


I don't know why I'm chimming in so late and remarking on something off topic, but there is a method to deal the bottom card of a shoe, but not consecutively. But, that's all folks!
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sodman12
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How is that possible?
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Cliff Rusnick
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I suppose if you move the bottom card to the side of the deck so that when you put the decks in the shoe it will lay under all the decks, near the front of the shoe. if you wanted to deal that card, you could push the decks back and grab the card that was under the decks (what used to be the bottom card)there for it would be a one time thing. anyway, that's just a stab in the dark, I don't really know for sure.
tommy
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Or put the cards in the shoe face up. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
sodman12
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Yeah that's the best way. I deal flawless bottoms like that.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
thegreatsantani
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The holder used cards are put in are a colr that allows any marking to be seen, as it would be to the gamblers advantage to know aces and or 10 point cards. If said gambler marks the back of a card with "juice" it would show up in the discard shoe. Saw that on an episode of Behind the scenes or somting of that nature.

TGS
JasonEngland
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Quote:
On 2006-03-28 08:51, Expertmagician wrote:
Somebody has to be wrong here...

1) Mindplay marks cards for casino identification ... but, not to determin the card's value.




Whoever said that is wrong. The cards are marked in the same spot on each card...by a barcode. The barcode allows the machine to determine the value of each individual card. The beveling action of the Mindplay reader allows all the barcodes to be visible at the same time while the deck sits in the device. After that information is stored, the cards can be removed and placed in a shoe to be dealt, or if Mindplay has finished working on their reader/dealing shoe, then I'm sure they can be dealt straight from the device that read the cards. Not sure how far along the reader/dealing shoe is.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2006-03-18 22:53, tommy wrote:
Some use it on the face of cards.

http://www.laserlocktech.com/productinfo.html


Where does it say this on that site? I don't see it.
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2006-03-23 06:22, tommy wrote:
Thanks.

I did read there is a court case going on about the mindplay thing as in effect the casino are using marked cards.

There are invisible markings that cannot be replicated or even found by forensic people if they were to look at them. However, I am not sure if it has ever been used on cards. It is used for anti counterfeit. A dedicated electronic device as small as a key ring reads it. The stuff is so small that it is smaller than bacteria and once it is put on anything it merges with the normal bacteria of whatever it is put on to and cannot distinguished from normal bacteria that is found on everything. It comes either as a dust like stuff and can be put into ink or whatever. It would be a great for marking cards but you need to run the machine over the stuff to read it or the other way around. Even the people who make it cannot tell it is on the product only the customer with his dedicated machine/s can read it. Another customer can not read another customers mark with his machine. It is literally impossible for any at all to find the mark without your machine. It will be used on everything in future and is probably on something your wearing right now. The people making it will put the machine/reader in anything you want but the smallest thing I seen is a key ring maybe it could be put in a finger ring. It could certainly be put into a dealing shoe. Obviously if they found you with the reader that would be a problem but I am saying categorically that no one can find the marks if they just examined the cards, not the gaming commission or anyone else. It is all quite scary and it is said to be real cheap per item.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Do I detect the pungent aroma of excrement of the male bovine, combined with a sense of paranoia here?

If such a marking exists, then within months, the forensic people and the cheaters will have a way of detecting it.

I suggest that you check, as Lee Darrow has suggested, with the Nevada Gaming Commission regulations.
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tommy
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I suggest that what I say is perfectly true and suggest you do not bet me it is not.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
O J
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Marked cards are difficult to detect.But its still cheating.Some people think cheating is ok, I think its bad.But I'm not sure if its immoral or not, is it? Smile
tommy
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It is immoral, bad and cheating for a magician to use marked cards and not to mention gaffs and stooges, in his act. There should be law that carries the death sentence by burning for any magician caught. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Expertmagician
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I always use a marked deck, but in reality rarely use the marks. I use a marked deck because it only costs about $3-4 to mark a deck using luminous or juice and if I come across a pain in the neck or a magician I want to fool badly, I have an extra weapon up my sleeve. (Just handy to have around.)

Also, when I was younger and learning, it gave me a crutch in case I missed a force, etc.

So, in my opinion, a marked deck is not cheating...nor is using a copper/silver coin or a Boston box or any other gimmick which we use to accomplish our miracles Smile
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tommy
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And so the end justifies the means and so it is when one is a professional.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
sodman12
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Idk about you guys but I still use my scotch and soda when I need a nice trick to impress someone.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
JasonEngland
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Some of you might've missed the point of the markings on the Mindplay cards.

Remember, these marks are on the FACES, where there are ALREADY marks! The normal ones that we all use to determine the value when the cards are turned over. The only thing the Mindplay system has done is move the marks to the extreme edges of the cards and use a barcode scanner to encode the information. (My guess is that other information besides suit and value is encoded, like perhaps lot number, and perhaps a casino identifier, but that's just speculation on my part.)

You don't get in trouble for having invisible marks on decks on the same surfaces as plainly visible marks. You DO get in trouble for manipulating this information illegally. So, for a casino to employ the Mindplay cards and readers isn't illegal, as long as they don't alter the basic game-selection criteria.

Using the readers to prevent card switching and to "replay" a disputed hand are perfectly legitimate uses of this technology. Using the readers to identify shoes that have taken a turn towards the negative and then reshuffling (called preferential shuffling) may or may not be illegal (depending on the area).

Using the readers in combination with a shill or house player to "anchor" off bad cards and help improve the dealer's hand would definitely be cheating.

It's all in how you use it.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
tommy
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“The Mindplay system uses an optical scanning device to read markings embedded in the edge of the cards as they are dealt out. The system can continually calculate the odds of the house winning each hand, and when the odds turn to a predetermined negative expectation, the dealer can be signaled to shuffle the cards.”

Al Rogers


If that's not cheating I'm a banana!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
JasonEngland
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Tommy, you may want to prepare to be peeled.

The laws in the US don't require the house to deal a losing game. It is perfectly legal to change the rules of the game on virtually a whim (at least in Nevada, and many other states).

Why is it that restricting doubling to 10 and 11, not allowing the resplitting of aces, not allowing doubling after splitting, paying 6 to 5 on Blackjacks, and hitting soft 17 are all "okay" in your mind (I'm presuming here), but not preferential shuffling?

After all, all of the above things increase the house edge. Although I agree that preferential shuffling is certainly a gray area, I can see the casinos' side of things. In fact, preferential shuffling of a sort is already in every casino in the land. What do you think the stop card is all about? It's an attempt to reduce the likelihood that a shoe will go so far positive that a big edge can be realized by the player. Instead of shuffling when the deck actually goes negative, they just shuffle so often that the effect is that the deck never has the chance to go positive in the first place. I'm overstating the facts a bit here, because shoes with poor penetration occasionally do go positive, but the attempt by the casinos to flatten the fluctuation is clearly there.

Cheating? I could be persuaded that in some (maybe even most) circumstances it is. But I think if you fought this battle and won you might still wind up losing the war, because the casinos are still free to alter the game in dozens of other fashions to make it unbeatable, and now you're back to the fact that the law can't compel them to offer losing games.

I think of preferential shuffling when a human does it as fine. If the players can legally count cards, then certainly the casinos should be allowed the same freedom. Many dealers CAN in fact count, and there's no doubt that some have been instructed to shuffle up when the shoe turns positive. Once you cross the line and allow a machine to do the counting for you, I agree that you're moving closer and closer to the unethical side of the argument, and perhaps all the way to cheating.

But I don't know that the courts will agree.

Jason
Eternal damnation awaits anyone who questions God's unconditional love. --Bill Hicks
sodman12
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I think that untill a large number of the casino going crowd get wind of this nothing with stop the casino from doing whatever they please.

the average casino patron I doubt would notice this or care about this although some might find it offensive I doubt it would even make a dent in the profits of a casino much less kill the profit they would be gaining from using this.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
tommy
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A person can not use a mechanical device to card count, that is law yet the casino's are doing just that and using a loophole in the law by claiming a casino is not person under the law. It is nothing short of scandalous.
When I am president all these casino owners and their sympathisers will be wearing orange suits and living in Cuba. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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