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Roslyn
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Hi all,

Just been doing a little searching on the web for sj world records.

I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straitjacket

I'm a little confused by the way he escaped from an sj underwater faster than doing it on land.

I'm also confused by the fact they say he escaped a posey during his land escape, but just say sj when talking about his underwater escape.

Does anyone know what the sj was that he used in the underwater version? Or have any info/video of him doing it?

Cheers,

Ros
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Harley Newman
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I know nothing about these particular claims, however, many of the "records" done for the Guinness televisions programs are total BS.
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Red Von
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Quote:
On 2006-04-02 13:05, Harley Newman wrote:
I know nothing about these particular claims, however, many of the "records" done for the Guinness televisions programs are total BS.


Concur! The "Guinness Shows" were completely laughable!
Houdini man
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Anybody can put anything on that wikipedia. I would not trust a word they put up there.
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DavidEscapes
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Hi Guys

I have tried long and hard to find video or info about that underwater record. Personally I do not believe a real jacket was used for it.

There are a number of straitjacket records out there, and even the Guinness ones can be suspect. Someone who posts here has recently claimed a record for the SJ of 18 seconds. This has been accepted by record holders republic. I do not beleive this time is possible with a real Posey, properly applied and sized. It is a blatent cheat.

Guinness stopped taking SJ records because they were being faked. I managed to pursuade them to open up the catagory again. If it carries on like this they will close it again.

This week I became the first even forigner to be given a record in Russia. Their equivelant of Guinness flew me over for a ceremony, with trophies, press ect. Footage of the event was even broadcast by NBC & ABC across America, and by the BBC and other channels here. I also have a new Guinness record being confirmed. More on all this later Smile

Cheers

David
David Victor - The artist formally (and still occasionally) known as David Straitjacket.

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Daniel Santos
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I heard from MTK yesterday that he broke his eighth record...fastest escape from a straitjacket. Ask him for details. (Unless this is the 18 seconds Mr. Straitjacket spoke of).
If it is to be, it is up to me.
MattTheKnife
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Quote:
There are a number of straitjacket records out there, and even the Guinness ones can be suspect. Someone who posts here has recently claimed a record for the SJ of 18 seconds. This has been accepted by record holders republic. I do not beleive this time is possible with a real Posey, properly applied and sized. It is a blatent cheat.



David,

How DARE YOU!

I did beat the record WITHOUT cheating... and I did it in 18.97 seconds. If you don’t believe me, I don’t really care. And if you’d like to see it first hand then by all means pay for my fee to come to the UK and I’d be more than happy to take your challenge on.

My abilities as an EA have been proven time and time again. As is well known, I currently hold the 2 other Guinness records for escapes as well.

And if you think that I’m using a gaffed jacket then I urge you to call up Mark Cannon and ask him if I recently bought the proper one or not. (Which is a Posey Regulation Strait Jacket with friction buckles, side and belly loops that is properly sized.)

It’s unfortunate- I’ve tried very hard to stay out of all of the bickering that can often go on here. I rarely come on and mention my accomplishments because I know that it can make you a target for others even when they justified and make for fun stories. We’ve lost a lot of good friends due to attacks EXACTLY like these and they’ve made me so sour to the café that for the most part I’ve turned from one who posts often to now only occasionally lurking around.

I’m DEEPLY offended by such an allegation. But really all that I have to say to this is the following… David- I’m sorry that me being better than you at this escape has seemed to upset you to the point that you’d call me a cheat.

And another thing… while I’m at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d finally take down the claims on your site that imply that you STILL hold the world record for the fastest escape from handcuffs – because the last time that I checked, that was mine too. Smile

Cheers,
-Matt (TK)

PS- To all of the rest of you that were on the underwater strait jacket topic, I have no idea about any of it and I’ VERY sorry to have had to interject with this post.
Ian McColl
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I saw the performance of the under water strait jacket on TV here as it was G B Australian's records (taped here in Australia) The rules were read out about what the jacket was to comprise of ) but the attempt was made with a jacket that didn't live up to those standards. (no arms loops)

I should have this on tape.

Ian
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In the "immortal" words of Houdini, "If it takes you quick to get out of an ecape, that just means that the Escape was not that impressive anyway."

No offense to the other artists here, but who are you trying to impress? Other Escape Artists, or, your spectators? Other Escape artists would know how difficult or easy it is and therefore applaud, to the layman, a Straitjacket, is a straitjacket, is a straitjacket. Most don't know the difference. I have never had anyone tell me about an impressive escape which only took the performer seconds. They normally tell me about what the performer was bound with. That is important to them.

Just my view.

Regards
Wolflock
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Kondini
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Lets take time out and get real!!!
Look at your time pieces and count down 18 seconds.
Now get someone to put you in a SJ (Un gimmed)The correct way.

This now becomes sensible, everything will sink in!!!!

I guess over the years I have used the SJ in many forms as much as the next ea,and from the posts here I would be right out of the running for any kind of a record,,,,,but I couldn't give a *** about records cos they will never pay the rent.

BTW according to Guinness I hold 2!!!!! Having recieved only one certificate I don`t think Im gonna cry over not getting the other.
Self ego is ok,,,,just keep it to yourself.

Ken.
mark2004
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It seems to me it's almost impossible to have meaningful world records in something like SJ escape. And before anybody leaps to the conclusion that I'm slagging off anyone's work I'm not. I think we can probably all recognise that each of the artists who've listed their various feats here are skilled performers who have admirable achievements to their name. No, the problem is in setting a consistent, objectively measurable challenge.

In fields such as sport they go to immense lengths to ensure that records are set under consistent conditions. There are standards for tracks, apparatus, pools etc. and, for events such as running, the wind has to be within certain limits for a record to count.

To ensure SJ records are comparable to one another you would have to ensure at least the following (and I expect experienced performers can probably come up with more).

(1) Some sort of standard for SJs. I know people sometimes talk as if certain designs were "standards", such as the Posey, but I don't think that's sufficient. For a start people sometimes describe a jacket as a Posey when it's actually a Posey-like jacket. Even if it's a good copy there might be variations in materials or manufacture that make a difference to ease of escape. Even if we're talking about jackets from one manufacturer there will be manufacturing variations from one jacket to another, so you might want to specify certain tolerances. And that's before you even start on the question of how the jacket fits the performer. Obviously artists do not come in standard sizes. The fit of the jacket must surely make a difference to escape difficulty - so how do you ensure each artist has the same amount of space?

(2) Some sort of standard for how the jacket is applied. Obviously you can specify that all the straps are used but is that enough? I'd be willing to bet that even with that proviso a seasoned performer could apply a jacket more effectively than a member of the public or some other non-expert assistant (eg. in ensuring the tension of the straps and preventing the performer from using techniques to obtain slack as they're put into the jacket). So how do you ensure that each performer has the jacket fastened in a way that presents them with a similar challenge to everyone else. All I can think of is that you would have to use some sort of tension gauge on the straps but I can't see how that could be practical.

(3) Some clear definition of when the escape starts and finishes. Do we trust artists not to start any preparatory moves until someone shouts "go" or fires a starting pistol? Do we take the time from the moment when the assistants finish tightening the straps (eg. the point at which the last person lets go of a strap)?
Presumably the escape finishes when the artist throws the jacket clear (ie. the moment artist and jacket are no longer in contact).

(4) (continuing on from my previous point) You need some realistic standards for timing. Is it realistic to measure escapes to 100ths of a second?


I'm not familiar with any requirements that Guinness or whoever might have prescribed. If they've covered these things then maybe that's OK - but, like others here, I'm not completely convinced that any of the records organisations are particularly rigorous with subject areas such as performance arts .

So it looks to be as if we're back to one person's bally against another's...
mark2004
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BTW, There's an artist called Kerstin Stassburger who seems to be claiming a record of 8.28 seconds. Make of that what you will (see URL below)

http://www.magical-moments.de/magie54.html

My previous comments about difficulty in objective comparison and accuracy of timing still apply.
MattTheKnife
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I’d just like to stress that this isn’t an ego thing- this is an honor and respectability thing. I never came on here and said to anyone that I broke the record. I never posted anything or even alluded to it on the café. I don’t like posting such things because they can often come off as needless bragging. I only posted anything about this because I was called “a blatant cheat” – which I am not.

All of the guidelines that, from what I understand, were set up by David himself with Guinness were followed 100%. And I feel that they are an accurate representation of what should be adhered to. (Mark, bye-the-by, much of what you asked about is actually addressed.)

I did this record (as with nearly all of my records) for business reasons. It very effectively achieved those goals and was therefore a success.

Cheers,
-Matt (TK)

PS- And if Kerstin Stassburger really does have such a time with the same requirements that I had to meet then I say good for him! Smile But for me all that I had to do was overcome the record that Guinness and Alternative had in their files which was held by Ben Bradshaw of Australia.
DavidEscapes
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Hi everyone

I am only going to make one reply here, as I don't want to contribute to the troubles. Anything else can happen by PM. That's why I didn't name names in the first place.

Firstly. Everyone is right when they say that speed is not important. It isn't. I would never perform a SJ, handcuff or any other escape like that under normal circumstances, I just occasionally perform world record attempts, usually for charity. But on stage, with a live audience, what's the point!

Mark. I wrote the rules for Guinness's straitjacket escapes, and all the above points are covered. please let me know if you would like a copy.



Matt, To answer your message:

"I did beat the record WITHOUT cheating... and I did it in 18.97 seconds. If you don’t believe me, I don’t really care. And if you’d like to see it first hand then by all means pay for my fee to come to the UK and I’d be more than happy to take your challenge on."

No, I don't believe you! A proper Posey escape, to Guinness standards is simply not possible in that time. You didn't do it. If you did, put the video online for everyone to see.


"And if you think that I’m using a gaffed jacket then I urge you to call up Mark Cannon and ask him if I recently bought the proper one or not. (Which is a Posey Regulation Strait Jacket with friction buckles, side and belly loops that is properly sized.)"

So you bought a regulation Posey, so what.



"I’m DEEPLY offended by such an allegation. But really all that I have to say to this is the following… David- I’m sorry that me being better than you at this escape has seemed to upset you to the point that you’d call me a cheat."

Being good, or better at any escape has nothing to do with times. If you think that you are very misguided, also, if you think that the records I have set represent my fastest times you are even more misguided. I never set out to do the escapes as fast as I could. Just a bit faster than the previous holders. No-one with any idea of how to play the game does the fastest time they can possibly do. I am surprised you haven't figured this out.


"And another thing… while I’m at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d finally take down the claims on your site that imply that you STILL hold the world record for the fastest escape from handcuffs – because the last time that I checked, that was mine too."

Of course, as long as you promise to do me the same courtesy if I beat them?


Cheers

David
David Victor - The artist formally (and still occasionally) known as David Straitjacket.

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Harry Murphy
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Kerstin, a German (?) female escape artist was given a certificate from Guinness for her escape in 8.28 seconds. That said I don’t know what standards she was held to. The jacket she holds up in her publicity photo looks like an older version of the Abbott’s gaffed jacket!

I wonder about all this Guinness record stuff anyway. At one time (in the 70’s and 80’s) they were refusing to recognize Straightjacket escapes in any category (shortest time to escape, escape while hanging from highest point, etc.).

Frankly, I can’t take Guinness straight, I have to do it as a Black and Tan (and that has evil connotations to my folks! I had a grandfather shot down by a Black and Tan! But I digress!!!).

Heck the book of records was just published to promote Guinness while settling bar bets!

Maybe we should start our own organization to certify various escapes. We could set the standard, judge the escape, award the certificate (and the bragging rights), and keep a public accessible repository of the record.

Or maybe we’ll all calm down and realize that we are trying to entertain here using escapes as our medium.

By the way, in the 70’s, I held a Straightjacket record briefly. Guinness refused to recognize it. I believe that I may still have the correspondence somewhere. My record was for the “slowest” escape from a regulation (blab, blab) jacket. It took me 18 hours! It was for a charity fundraiser. Money was donated for every hour of struggle! Later my record was beat by a Japanese teenager, she took 20 hours to escape. I hesitate to say this, but I think she cheated and slept part of the time!
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mark2004
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On 2006-04-05 10:20, David Straitjacket wrote:

Mark. I wrote the rules for Guinness's straitjacket escapes, and all the above points are covered. please let me know if you would like a copy.



David,
Thanks for that offer, I've PM'd you about it. I did (as I indicated) wonder if the Guinness Book people had covered those concerns.

Mark
DavidEscapes
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For anyone that wants them Smile


**********************************************************


STRAITJACKET ESCAPES
The following act as a guide to the specific considerations
and undertakings, in addition to the general requirements,
for any potential attempt on straitjacket escape records. They
should be read and understood by all concerned –
organisers, participants and witnesses – prior to the event.

RULES
These guidelines are for escapes by individuals using straitjacket. There are currently three categories based on speed and one based on height:-
• Fastest time to escape from a straitjacket
• Fastest escape from a straitjacket underwater
• Fastest time to escape from a straitjacket suspended upside down
• Highest suspension straitjacket escape

1. For all the attempts, a standard straitjacket must be used which has not been altered in any way. No theatrical straitjackets may be used

2. Each jacket must fit the escape artist according to his size. In order to make sure that the straitjacket used for the attempt is correctly sized, it is necessary to weigh the participant, and compare their weight against the manufacturers’ chart. Details of this must be supplied with the claim.

3. Prior to the record attempt an independent witness should inspect the straitjacket to ensure that all straps are in place and no alterations have been made and the arms are free of any ‘alien’ object. The jacket must have secured:
• Front loop arms
• Two side loops
• Four back straps in place
• Crotch strap in place

4. An experienced time keeper should be present for the event.

5. Qualified medical staff should also be present throughout the challenge.

6. Once the challenger is in the fastened straitjacket, it should be inspected by an independent witness to confirm that the jacket has been fastened correctly.

7. If the challenger wishes to elaborate on their escape for theatrical effect by using chains and padlocks, or dangling from a burning rope, they do so at their own will. The attempts remain as being the fastest or highest escape from a straitjacket.

8. Guinness World Records accepts no responsibility for the safety of record attempts, but it is recommended that stringent safety precautions are taken.


For the attempt on dry land:-
• The attempt begins after a pre-arranged countdown and ends as soon as the participant is free and drops the straitjacket on the floor.

For the under water submergence attempt:-
• The record may be set in any body of water, including lakes, swimming pools, the ocean etc. Note that there is no minimum depth – it is only necessary for the escape artist’s entire body (inlcuding the handcuffs) to be submerged during the attempt.
• The clock starts when the escape artist is fully submerged and stops once the straitjacket has been handed to the assistant/judge waiting on the edge of the water

For the fastest suspension attempt:-
• A safety net is adviseable
• The person must me suspended upside down at least 1 m (3.2 ft) from the ground. The height is to be measured from the ground to the challenger’s head.

For the highest suspension attempt:-
• The person must me suspended upside down on a rope no less than 10 m (32 ft) long once secured to the challenger.
• It is the height the aircraft/balloon reaches and maintains during the escape which constitutes the record, so calibrated altimeters on board the balloons should be used to record the exact altitude at the time of the escape.
• Breathing apparatus may be used.
• It is the responsibility of the record organiser/s to ensure that the event proceeds in accordance with local aviation laws. Breaking the law in any way during the record attempt will result in disqualification.
• Qualified medical personnel should be present throughout the attempt.
• The location above which the attempt to place should be given.
David Victor - The artist formally (and still occasionally) known as David Straitjacket.

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Red Von
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Thanks for the info David!

Clear and specific!

:cheers:
harry knight
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Great info David, Thank you.

Harry
Daniel Santos
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Quote:
On 2006-04-05 06:00, Kondini wrote:
Self ego is ok,,,,just keep it to yourself.

Ken.


Howdy. I must say that it's pretty much my fault for that. MTK told me he did not plan on saying anything, and that he does it mainly for business. He honestly did not want to start any trouble here. This is exactly what I told him, “I feel that when one does something extraordinary, it is appropriate to acknowledge them for their dedication despite personal opinion.”

If anybody feels the need to argue about the record set, I would recommend one of two things:

1.) You discuss it somewhere else.
or
2.) You take it out on me for bringing the whole thing up in the first place.

I really would like the bickering and backbiting to stop, so please don’t continue. Sorry about that!


Dan
If it is to be, it is up to me.
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