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tglund Regular user Broomfield, CO, USA 115 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-20 23:46, Doug Arden wrote: Ok, I understand what you are saying but there is a fundamental problem with your statement, that is you assume people know what their show is worth. Unlesss someone has hired not just one magician but several magicians in their geographical area or performed some other form of market research may not have a basis for knowing what their show is worth. Factors such as show length, number of people involved i.e. do you have an assistant or not, are animals involved, size of illusions, venues, etc. will impact the market price of the show. Someone just starting out will not have a good basis for determining "Worth". that is why I suggested the compensation guide. |
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Frank Simpson Special user SW Montana 883 Posts |
Tglund-
The compensation guide is a nice idea in theory, but I fear that in practice it would prove to be so wildly varying that it would serve between little and no good. As we are all ostensibly "artists" it becomes extremely difficult to standardize fees. I am quite certain that painters and sculptors do not have any sort of standardized prices for their work. Unfortunately, the only way to determine your worth is by experimentation. In a free market economy you are free to charge what the market will bear. More magicians in your market will make competitive bidding a more important factor. But if you are a "big fish in a small pond" this may not be an issue, so long as you are going head-to-head with magicians. When your potential client is trying to decide between you, a clown, a juggler and a balloon-folding act, the lines blur even further. Reputation can often be your best sales tool. A magician who only uses MAK magic props with their original paint jobs and performs the patter, word-for-word, that comes with the props (I'm making an example here, please no one get offended) is far less likely to be able to demand a higher fee than someone who may perform the exact same tricks, but each has been customized to create a continuity, and the patter has been recrafted to suite the specific performer (and only him). Broadly speaking, this is what differentiates a "trick-doer" from a "magician", and the fees will change accordingly. An artist is not a "product" that can entirely be evaluated mathematically. The cost of materials used in creating a painting, sculpture or magic act is very seldom directly relevent to the fees charged for them. It is the elusive spark of "art" that is being paid for. And what is that spark worth? Who can say? |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
So far, from what I can tell, the way to see if you are charging the right amount is to post what you charge. Then a dozen magicians who don't do the same thing you do or perform anywere near where you perform will tell you that you are charging entirely too little, regardless of the number you give, and you will know without a doubt that you need to increase your rates by a factor of 10. So far I have found this process ever so helpful.
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Marvello Inner circle It's amazing how little I can say in 1612 Posts |
If you are working as a Pro, and it is your only job you need to look at
1) How much are your expenses each month? 2) How much work can you get each month? If your expenses are $4,000 a month and you can only book 1 hour a month then you need to charge $4,000 an hour If you are a part-time pro then you need to look at how much money you could be making doing other things with your spare time, and make sure that your magic gigs cover at least that much. If you are doing it for fun then don't worry about it, but make sure you charge what you feel you deserve. I know that this is simplistic, but there are many factors involved when asking how much $ you should charge. Basically, never sell yourself short. Only you know what you are worth.
Never criticize someone else until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Hey Scratchy, you are simply not listening.
I have put forth the idea of what cryptologists call a "self authorising language" It is basically that once you are able to understand the language, then and only then are you entitled to know what it is that is being said. This falls into this catagory. Thing is, Scratchy, that people are TRYING to give you hints to decypher the language, and YOU don't want to listen. Fine, don't listen. Who does it hurt? US? Well, no, we are OK. Indeed in the long run, Scratchy, you are the one who is hurt the most by this process. Figure what you are worth, and then charge it. Come up with a business plan. Read Jim Snacks stuff. It will help you learn to run a business. This is the problem. NOBODY KNOWS HOW TO RUN A BUSINESS. We all want to learn the latest variation of oil and water, but nobody wants to decide if their year runs on a 10 or 12 month spread sheet. So again learn a business plan, then your questions will be answered. Or keep not reading or listening, and go the way you are.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Ah, but you are so wrong. I understand this language very clearly. I highly recomend you stop using it. Now.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
You haven't the faintest idea what we are talking about. Sorry.
Jack, I like you. You seem like a nice enough guy, you really do. I hope that others reading at least are good enough to pick the diamonds from the rough in this thread to come up with a formula to succeed at what we are hinting at. I have read it all. It IS there. Just about everything you would need to more than "triple" what it is you are charging. I really hope you take the time to take the emotion out of it, and try to find the information. It will really help you.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Danny, there was only one word in your post I have any interest in, and that's the one you used in place of either my name or screen name. I see that as a tremendous sign of disrespect.
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Drew, what the others charge here has nothing to do with your area. Not a one of them could walk into your area and get any more than what the ones there is already getting. I read somewhere here where you were in about the middle of the chart. You're doing OK. If you think you deserve more, then slowly begin to raise your fee and see what happens.
One person doesn’t set the rates in an area that has many performers. The group as a whole does that. You telling a client what they charge in another area means nothing. Also, very few can compare with the one or two top performers within that area. (Those looking for the best will always hire the big name.) Take Scott Hollingsworth and one or two more out of the picture and get an average from the rest. Go from there. To find out what the internet magicians make in other areas, cut the said rate in half, that’s probably a better guide to go by. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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dandanmagicman New user Great Bend, KS 46 Posts |
This thread has been an education. It is too bad all the negativity is interwoven with such awesome info. It is hard for me to imagine getting what many of you get per show. But, I am happy to pull in my pittance here in the middle of nowhere. You get what you can get. Thanks for the info.
All the world is a stage...
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John LeBlanc Special user Houston, TX 524 Posts |
Everything that follows is predicated on the premise that you are able to actually perform for live people in a manner that cheerfully exceeds their expectations. (If you are able to do a perfect double in such a way as to repel every living person in the room, all bets are off.)
I'm also happy to have spent all of this time writing the following, even though I realize only a couple of people are actually going to read it and fewer still will believe me. From my experience, focusing on rates is not a useful thing. Rates are based on any number of things. If you're in this for the long haul, one thing they should not be based on is what other people are charging. As soon as you make that a factor -- or allow a client to make that a factor -- you've lost footing; you've admitted there's no substantial difference between you and all the other guys. And, if that's the case, the client may as well price shop because they aren't hiring Drew or John or Scott; they're hiring a magician. That's grabbing the wrong end of the tiger, I assure you. Decide how much income you reasonably intend for your magic business to generate per year. Divide that by the reasonable number of gigs you intend to do over the course of the year. The answer to that math quiz is what you charge. (Note the word "reasonable.") Now, go out and sell your act an forget about what the other guys are charging. And that brings me to the more important aspect of all of this: the business of magic is far more about business than it is about magic. Where the rubber meets the road -- which is for audiences -- plenty of things are more important than the magic itself. Sorry, but that's the way the earth turns. Over more years than I can count, I've spent more dollars than I can count on advertising, marketing and sales courses, workshops and seminars. After all of that training, three immutable truths become clear and they were three of the first things I ever learned when starting out in sales, lo these many years ago: 1. People buy from people they like. (And Doctor Cognos has made me mindful of noting that I consider respect part of that rapport building process.) 2. People won't like you if you don't like yourself first. 3. You can get anything in life that you want, if you just help others get what they want. (That's Zig Ziglar.) In the short run, most any of the latest and greatest "systems" on marketing and sales will help you sell more shows. But to build a sustainable business, if you stick with those three truths, you will be successful. You'd be amazed how easy it is to sell a $2,500 program to someone who likes you and has an itch your show can scratch. But I'll bet it comes as no surprise how impossible it is to sell that same show to someone who thinks you're a pushy creep. What makes the difference between the two? Read number three again. People to whom you are trying to sell can detect if you're trying to help them or help yourself. If you have a show that helps the client achieve his or her goals -- even if that goal is to be talked about by his or her co-workers for a week for bringing in an incredible performer -- you will achieve your own goals. If, instead, you focus only on making $120,000 a year, you're going to look at every reason you aren't hitting your goal except the right one; your focus is on the wrong thing. Another thing to consider: don't look at magic as the end result, view it as the vehicle. Stop trying to sell a magic show and, instead, sell a solution to someone's need. Scratch an itch. A mom wants her kid's birthday party to be the one that kid remembers forever; a store owner wants this sales event to have a unique draw to it; a meeting planner wants to be remembered as the person who put together the best company picnic ever. Help others get what they want and you'll get what you want. Finally, I think I can safely say that no matter what it is you're charging, you can double it. If it cuts in half the number of shows you do, you'll have more time to sell more shows. Far more often than not, I've found being the most expensive guy on the block helps more than it hurts. The implicit question becomes, "Why are you more expensive?" If you don't have a ready, honest answer to that question, maybe you should be doing something else. John |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Jack if you were upset with "Scratchy" I apologise. Just my way of releasing tension. I am truly sorry and it won't happen again, fair enough? It is all I can do.
Next, what you guys don't seem to realise is something hypnotists picked up on a LONG time ago. The more EVERYONE charges, the more EVERYONE CAN CHARGE. See the point? High prices help others. IF you do things cheaply because you think you "have too" then the guy who wants to undercut you (and he will always exist) has to be really cheap. See the point? Let them undercut, they are not worth the money and people will know this. The more you charge the less you have to work. You only have so many prime dates anyhow. TRUST ME ON THIS!!!!! And when you DO get undercut, they will call YOU back next time because they got ripped off and you are worth the money. I hope you're still reading Jack. I meant this as help and I think it was.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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TomBoleware Inner circle Hattiesburg, Ms 3163 Posts |
Well said, John.
Magicians are cheap, good business people cost more. To improve, the magician must look beyond the magic books. Tom
The Daycare Magician Book
https://www.vanishingincmagic.com/amazekids/the-daycare-magician/ My Blog - https://boleware.blogspot.com/ |
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JackScratch Inner circle 2151 Posts |
Quote:
On 2006-04-23 11:37, Dannydoyle wrote: I apreciate you apology. Perhaps such familiarity with someone you have never met is ill advised in the future. Particularly on a subject where your target is clearly already irritated. The undercut theory is well known, and even if it weren't, it's been explained about a million times in this thread. Everyone in magic knows the undercut theory, not just mentalists. Again, you assume we are talking about undercutting. You are assuming that undercutting has the effect everyone believes it does. That's an awful lot of assumption. Most of the replies to this thread contain many such assumptions and more. The things that are really upseting me (cutesy names not withstanding) is that I'm getting the same advice over and over, and that advice is all conflicting. I'm being told, witout question, how to arrive at what I should charge, and then that the number I arrive at using those techniques is entirely too low. All of this contained in a thread where those are not the answer to the actual question I have asked. Angry? Why would I be angry? I've asked a question which is not being answered in a thread packed with replies. What's there to be angry about? I am also frustrated with the fact that expecting more replies like the ones I have recieved thus far, I stopped replying to this thread in the hopes it would die, and it didn't. |
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Donald Dunphy Inner circle Victoria, BC, Canada 7563 Posts |
Two tiny things:
1) Remember that we do not "own" the threads we start or participate in, or any posts we make here, much as we might wish. They are owned by Steve Brooks. All posts and content are copyright him, even when we make them. Each of us agreed to that condition of membership and participation at The Magic Café, when we registered. This is the way it is on other forums, too. And it also states that copyright at the bottom of every page you see. So, unfortunately, one has to let go of the "right of ownership" somewhat to a thread. (There are also other conditions of behaviour that members agree to, but I won't comment about that.) 2) If you want to increase your rates (and I am not assuming that you do or don't), you mapped out your own plan earlier. You stated that you feel Scott can ask for more in your area, because he is a celebrity and because he is an author. If you want to increase your fees, and feel you need to justify it (to yourself, or to your customers), then work on setting yourself up as a local celebrity and as an author. (Remember, I didn't state those reasons as to why Scott gets paid more, but rather you did. I make no comment either way whether they are right or wrong opinions. You are the one that has to motivate yourself, not me.) And again, I make no judgements. - Donald P.S. John LeBlanc - your post is amazing! Thank you for a well-thought, meaningful contribution!!
Donald Dunphy is a Victoria Magician, British Columbia, Canada.
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 21219 Posts |
Jack, we tried.
I am done. It is now up to you entirely. You can do it. You just seem to refuse to open your eyes. Oh, a small clarification and to make my point of not paying attention. I said HYPNOTIST, not mentalist. A small point but it matters in that you are misreading a LOT of what is being said. Try clearing your mind, not being angry, and opening up to help. You may be suprised at what you get.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Frank Simpson Special user SW Montana 883 Posts |
Really, everything that John LeBlanc has said is all that needs to be said. Everything else is conjecture at best.
I'll offer up the third cheer for John! |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts |
Jack - several people, myself included, have offered you non-judgemental, non-negative ideas and advice on how to determine if you are undercharging. You have chosen to ignore that advice and complain and whine about those who did not help you in the way you wanted.
Reading back over your original thread you ask a lot of personal information about people's finanical circumstances, expenses and commitments. You can't expect people to give you that sort of information on public forum and, even if they did, that information would be useless to you. |
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jlevey Inner circle Montreal, Quebec, Canada 2076 Posts |
John LeBlanc gave thoughtful and valuable advice in his posting above, as did many others throughout this thread.
Another great resource is Michael Ammar's, "Negotiating Higher Performance Fees". Intelligent, strategic and motivational, it has helped countless entertainers increase their earnings by many-fold. You can order it from Michael directly, on-line at: http://www.ammarmagic.com/store/index.ph......ts_id=72 All the best! Jonathan
Jonathan
Max & Maxine Entertainment Magicians with a touch of comedy! ___________________________________ www.maxmagician.com www.mindreadershow.com www.monsieurmagic.com |
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dandanmagicman New user Great Bend, KS 46 Posts |
John LeBlanc:
Your advice was brilliant and clarifying. I was again reminded why I spend so much time reading this board. Thanks Dan
All the world is a stage...
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