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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Food for thought » » Glenn Bishop's 11 min. Close Up Act » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Dannydoyle
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Lovely makes far more sense. Operator malfunction on my eyes. Or brain. BOTH give me a lot of trouble.

Glenn I understand now what you were doing. Perhaps you were doing it in the wrong place though.

The Café in general does not have many people who give a flying hoo haa about what you are trying to convey here. Most here are NOT professional magicians and what you speak of is not what they want.

They want the next new trick or method or whatever. I am NOT addressing anyone in particular by the way.

That combined with your lack of clarity in the beginning didn't help.

As for posting acts to teach let me say this. I don't believe the internet is the proper medium to teach what you are trying to teach or talk about. The forum does not allow for the proper use of teaching techniques. So I for one would never put anything up for the reasons of teaching anything. I don't think it helps very much.

Mind you only one mans opinion.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
vinsmagic
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Danny Doyle I hear what you are saying but I do not agree about sharing and people here on the Café do not want to learn......It takes courage to put youself on the line as Glen has . and I my self have on occasions..
Back to Laurie .. I am one of the most honest people here on the Café , and there is a difference in honesty and having some fun you,,
Ok for the record I do not have lauries hat.....perhaps some day you will give the hat away and if you do PLEASE send it my way.....
the godfather
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magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2006-04-14 17:20, Dannydoyle wrote:

The Café in general does not have many people who give a flying hoo haa about what you are trying to convey here. Most here are NOT professional magicians and what you speak of is not what they want.


I don't believe this has been the problem for this thread. I believe the outright dismissal of legitimate comments made by those who were interested enough to check out the clip is what has derailed commentary.



Thanks, Vinny.
But somebody else already has dibs on the hat. Smile
Take care.
cinemagician
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Glen, What happened to the video. Has it been removed from the site?
...The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity...

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Josh Riel
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I think spelling is important, However as a brother to three sisters and one brother out of 5 siblings aside from myself and one mother and father who suffered from the same issue as Glen's I am aware of the problems faced by those. One of my sisters legally changed her name from "Tamy" to "Tami" because she never could get the Y right, another would never write letters from shear embarrassment. This is neither a joke or slam, it is serious and important to remember. Not everyone is as perfect as they would like to believe.

However Glen, I would like to say the same applies in many areas. The original post, while somewhat intended perhaps for edification, was really targeted at those who criticized the video. When this happens you are saying "Don't criticize me, as I am above it" this will bring on what has occurred.



I have said before and stick to it: Glen Bishop is a motivating force in my own magic. Don't however bring to light an issue that you would prefer to have hidden. there are no "Perfect" magicians, all have their flaws ( I have at least 2; Showmanship and Presentation). Almost Everyone will take advantage of a situation where they can make themselves feel better about their own faults and center on another's. No magician, however skilled can claim flawless magic, to do so is futile. Making money and entertaining, fooling, surprising etc. are not a basis for the claim of perfection, or even a reasonable way to deflect criticism.

This is just my view. I have already made my response as to structure and such, so I have nothing further to add, other than to say; don't let constructive criticism cause such anxiety, and let the other types of destructive criticism go. They really don't hurt you or anyone who knows the truth, who else matters?
Magic is doing improbable things with odd items that, under normal circumstances, would be unnessecary and quite often undesirable.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-14 18:50, vinsmagic wrote:
Danny Doyle I hear what you are saying but I do not agree about sharing and people here on the Café do not want to learn......It takes courage to put youself on the line as Glen has . and I my self have on occasions..

Thanks Vinny I feel the same way. One of the things is no matter what we put out there is going to be someone that doesn't like it or has something to say.

I like yourself have an investment in what we do. There are not to many magicians out there coming up with new ideas in magic. And I find that there are more magicians in the sub culture that are magicians that don't perform magic. That in it's self very interesting. Because magic is one of the few hobbies that you can earn an income and then use it to buy more magic.

I enjoy watching other performers and I respect people that have the courage to get out there and do shows and work on mastery over their own dreams.

It is very easy to see what magicians think of muggles and I often wonder what muggles see when they think of magicians. We got an interesting look at that with the news stories when the masked magician did his exposure shows. What magicians thought about that and how muggles see us.

Magic is an entertainment but without the muggles to experience the magic effect, what would that do to magic as an entertainment? Is our audience muggles that used to do magic and have an interest? Is our audience just people and do some like what we do and some don't.

I ask myself these questions all the time. How does magic benefit the muggles? I think the questions are important because it is part of human nature to be selfish in the way that most people have a sign on them that says "what’s in it for me?"

Muggles won't spend money on things that they have no interest in. And if a magician does a bad show they may not get a magician for years. But if they see magicians as a group of people that bicker and criticize each other over pointless issues to them, how can that improve magic as an art that in my opinion should be done for their enjoyment and entertainment?

Just some thoughts!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
bishthemagish
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Enjoyed your post Josh Riel thanks for posting it.
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Dannydoyle
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Laurie your right.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
magicalaurie
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Appreciated, Danny.
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-14 18:58, magicalaurie wrote:
I don't believe this has been the problem for this thread. I believe the outright dismissal of legitimate comments made by those who were interested enough to check out the clip is what has derailed commentary.

What is it that you expected out of this thread when you posted?

What was it that you wanted that you did not get?

Please be very clear when you answer these questions. And please give great attention to detail. The problem people have with me is the fact that they write and because of the way I read it and the way my brain is wired - the message most often is unclear. So you may write it and I will pick up on a different message entirely.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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magicalaurie
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Precisely.
bishthemagish
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On 2006-04-14 18:58, magicalaurie wrote:
I believe the outright dismissal of legitimate comments made by those who were interested enough to check out the clip is what has derailed commentary.

First of all thank you for being so informative by writing just one word when I asked you to explain in detail.

Now onto the above you said, "I believe the outright dismissal of legitimate comments made by those who were interested enough to check out the clip" - Like by going to my web site to check out a video - I owe you something.

Like going to a web site to view video was, you doing me a favor.

That in itself is very interesting I had no idea that posting video to open up a conversation about a subject - that people would think that they are doing me a favor just by viewing it - and then I have the bad manners to reject and not listen to comments and criticism . That is very interesting.

When I was just getting into magic I never thought I was doing an older magician a favor when they took time with me. I thought it was great that an older magician would take time with me and I was doing my part to do them favors like mowing lawns, carrying props, and washing cars and being a gofer. My Dad got into magic by carrying the props of an older magician in the hood named Chandler Steven's. Magicians in the old days did not share secrets. And the only way to learn was from other magicians and books.

This was the way it was back in the 60's to when I started magic. How do you become a magician? Read books and get to know magicians. So I did that. I put myself in a place where I was helpful to them and they opened up to me.

It doesn't seem that it is like that today and I had no idea that young people and others learning magic consider that they are doing others a great privilege to log onto a web site and view video of magic. Something that I consider a miracle and would have loved to do when I was starting out. And would be thankful that I could do that - view magicians video - no matter what it was.

I wonder if magicians learning know how lucky they are that a magician like Vinny invents new moves and then e-mails them to almost anyone that wants to learn. What next? Are some that don't like it - would they want a refund of the download time? I think it is wonderful that some magicians take the time to help others and that there is a web and places like the Café that magicians can share ideas and teach the young and pass on information.

In fact I would consider it lucky if a magician of 30 years of performing experience or more would offer up information about texture and show structure for free. And other ideas learned in the "real world" of performing for free. Things that take a lifetime of learning at shows in the "real world" offered up and yours for the taking. Without the washing of cars and carrying of props.

Well here is my answer to people that think that I owe them something when they go to my web site. DON'T GO THERE. Because there is nothing for you. Many people do not like me because I say things like I see them. I do not owe anyone there education in magic. I help people but I do not want to help people that do not want to be helped. So If you are interested in talking about real show biz experience my door is often open. If not - I am not interested in having conversations and listing to criticism about things that I do not consider important.

Having said all that I will now talk about a story about show structure.

Back when my Dad did vaudeville he closed with the rope tie as the climax of his act. Television changed that. Because on TV most shows in the 70's like the talk and chat shows put there best act or star on first. The reason why it was to grab the audience and then hold them.

Henning closed first magic special show with the water torture tank as the climax.

Copperfield opens one of his specials with the asara floating and vanishing car. This was the big advertised effect. He did not close with this effect because he used it to open and grab the audience. This is show structure. Grab the audience and hold them for as long as you can and then end strong.

My dad opened with his closer or his strongest trick after TV changed the rules. Then he entertained them and closed strong.

One day a magician that did not do shows came into my Dads magic shop and sat at my Dads magicians table. This guy was just learning magic. He had just read an out dated book that said that it is good for magicians to close with there strongest trick and informed my Dad that his act would be better and more professional if he closed with the rope tie.

Sometimes it is good to thank people for taking the time and sometimes it is just better to say nothing at all.

The offending - not professional video has now been removed from my web site and I have nothing more to say.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Dannydoyle
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Glenn really I think you are overreacting friend.

I am not sure what exactly you expected from the video. Did you only want people to say "wow great, amazing, what structure, what texture, (I am not sure that is even really a term used in reference to what was posted.).

What did YOU want? How could you not expect someone to correct spelling? I mean really Glenn seriously now if you post things people will see things and mention them. Your reaction is almost childish in nature.

One thing you are forgetting in your examples. You mention your father and some great magicians you are simply "happy to learn from" and would never think a young person should do them a favor by being critical. Ok but you forget YOU are not them. You no matter how long you have been at it, have not reached the level of the men you keep mentioning.

Perhaps nobody would have critisized them either. You put yourself in a class automatically with them simply on the basis of age, and not accomplishments. Certianly you do not expect to be treated with the same deference as them.

Also here on the Café' it is a lot more annonomus (talk about bad spelling). You are not as celebrated as many of the people you mention. So others feel that perhaps you CAN benifit from their help. You do know they were trying to help.

So instead of being offended and taking your ball and going home, perhaps you should look at it in context, and not emotionally.

90% of the people here have no idea who your father was. Or Jack Pyle or any of the names you mention. I am not saying it is right or wrong, it just is. Things are different. You are trying to apply a standard from LONG ago (one which I agree with in most ways) to a new medium which was never DREAMED of at the time these men lived. You have to take a step into the 21st century. The world is in smaller, but in many ways much bigger.

Hope this does not offend you, just trying to clear things up and take the emotion out of it for everyone.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
vinsmagic
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Hi Jack Vinny Here , Glen is a very good friend even though we never met in real life,,
My two cents Glen has been involved with magic probably before 90 percent of the Café members were born.....This post IMO is not really about Glens video but about respect for the older person who has seen it all,,,,,,,What is honest about glen he stands behind what he says no matter what....Glen is only trying to give back to the magic community what he has learned over the decades for no cost FREE.
Glen Never said he was the best this was not the point, lets say Dia Vernon made a demo and misspelled a few words no one would of said anything abnout that.
They would of listened and learned....
This thread has been beaten to death Glen is a Good , Honest and sharing person he has so much to offer to the magic comunity but some of us do not get it..
I hope I do not offend any one as well by my thoughts on this...
vinny
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bishthemagish
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Thanks Vinny.

I think your own efforts to teach and to help younger magicians get exposure for there own good ideas and routines with your new DVD project La Famiglia is a really great thing for magic.

La Famiglia is a great DVD and how great it is for magic is not just because it has great routines on it. And it does have great routines on it.

La Famiglia is a great DVD because of great routines AND it has NEW ideas from a fresh smart good exciting group of young magicians. And YOU took the risk and put it out there. And that is a great thing for magic.

The circle of ideas continues and magic is better because of it.
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tommy
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Danny with respect I think it is you that is over reacting to what Glen is saying. He is simply saying: What is the point in talking if no one wants to talk about the point of the topic. He did put up in his first post that it was to talk about the structure of an act and repeated the point over and over. Comments on spelling etc are not legitimate comments they are beside the point comments. Start another topic on the importance spelling in magic then they are legitimate comment. Glen is not asking to be treated as a super star he merely is passing on some wisdom which he as learnt from pros he has known. Glen is an extremely modest man in my humble opinion. He in my opinion is one of great original thinkers here at café and he is willing to learn from anyone and tries to help any one who is willing to learn. If this whole thread was a magic act then one could say that it is a bad example of structure: It is hard to see what follows what and why.
Anyway, I think Glen is great even if he can’t spell , or does not have the patience of a saint or does not tolerant fools lightly. I think Glen is a great character he has faults like all us and it seems one them is an antistatic temperament at times. So what? The world , magic and the café would be a boring place with out the likes of Glen. I think we are none the wiser from this thread but we are better informed thanks to Glen.
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bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-15 10:06, Dannydoyle wrote:
You no matter how long you have been at it, have not reached the level of the men you keep mentioning.

Exactly what level are you talking about Danny? Is that they are or were stars?

If you are talking about stardom or as it should be spelled star dumb. They looked at stardom as part of advertising and marketing. That is if one could be considered to be a star back in those days it was because they spent 40 to 50 years doing the same act and honed it.

The stardom of a performing artist is nothing more than the marketing and advertising of that artist. Or the advertising department of that artist.

Or are you saying that I am not as good as my Dad. if you are saying that I would agree with you. But I have performed on many of the same performing stages he has over my performing life. And like him - the audience liked it and the client booked me back.

I remember watching a video tape of Jack Pyle and it is the same tape that is at my web site and on the DVD Punch Deck pro. One of the magicians there compares Matt Shulien to his son Charlie. One of the magicians there at this magicians party said that Charlie did not have the crisma that Matt had. That Matt was the better of the two.

Ed Marlo said that it did not matter that Charlie's audience who never saw Matt thought that he was great and that THEY were satisfied. Plus Ed Marlo also said that you should never compare the two because it was different times - different audiences and different magicians.

The only thing that matters is that THEY the magicians of yesterday had audiences that LOVED them. And today I have my own audiences that LOVE me. So putting that into perspective as all magicians that perform are just performers that do magic for audiences.

What's the point?

I think that Vinny and Tommy know me very well even though they never met me. I think that others that think they know me having met me really don't know me that well.

I think that criticism hurts magic when it gets in the way of the flow of information. I think that it is wrong to do it for personal ego reasons.

I think that one of the best books written on magic is the book Gulliver’s travels. By Swift. Note that when he is in the world of Lilly-put a land of petty, small people, that criticize their next door neighbors he is the giant. And the biggest person there.

Note how he moves into the next world that he is the one that becomes petty small and the smallest person in the kingdom.

The interesting thing was the way each world looked at him in a different way both big and small depending on the world he was in at the time. I think that has a lot to do with magic and the way people look at magic if your think about it.

It is also interesting that Swift was run out of England because his way at looking at the world was not the POPULAR view and I would say people did not agree with him as well!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Dannydoyle
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Glenn the POINT here is that nobody here knows who you are.

NOT a bad thing mind you. but stay with me here.

In an annonomus forum, people feel free to let critisizm fly. That is the nature of annonaminity (spellcheck THAT word man).

Your Dad and others reached high levels of respect. You personally have not reached those. These kids don't know you from Adam. No reflection on talent or on anything except their inability to read aparantly.

Point is many who offered help honestly thought they were HELPING.

You reacting as you did, helped nobody.

I am not saying anythnig bad about YOU or them. The opposite about you actually. I feel people CAN learn a LOT from you and those you were exposed too. This just may not be the forum to do it in is all.

Make all the allusions to literature you feel you have too. The point is still valid.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-15 15:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
Glenn the POINT here is that nobody here knows who you are.

Danny there are a lot of magicians that do know who I am and a lot of magicians that don't. There are some that like me and some that don't. The point is that I do not care what they say. Now I could have been a person that posts when people corrected my spelling and said something like - thank you for pointing that out.

You do not think I am as good as a magician as my Dad. So what.

You do not think that people here in the Café know me. So what.

But many of the Café members KNOW I have dyslexia and KNOW I can't spell and like Tommy really do not care.
Quote:
On 2006-04-15 15:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
In an anonymous forum, people feel free to let criticism fly. That is the nature of annonaminity (spellcheck THAT word man).

You and others think that it is healthy to let the criticism fly as you say. To let the criticism fly is an easy thing to do. But often we must choose between what is easy and what is right.

Tommy mentions that I have antistatic temperament and I do. In fact most of the old professionals were the same way. My Dad WAS a person that was of antistatic temperament. If you don't agree with me than you really did not know him very well. Knowing show people of today many are people of antistatic temperament.
Quote:
On 2006-04-15 15:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
Your Dad and others reached high levels of respect. You personally have not reached those. These kids don't know you from Adam. No reflection on talent or on anything except their inability to read apparently.

Point is many who offered help honestly thought they were HELPING.

If that is your opinion then fine Danny. But it is not my reality. Magicians need to know that there is a time and a place for things. Do you like magicians coming to your show and then telling you how to do your show? Do you like magicians sitting in the audience and talking out loud how great they are while you are performing, or while you are trying to give a hypnotic induction?

If people do this are they helping you at your show?

If they want to learn - THERE IS A RIGHT TIME AND A RIGHT PLACE TO TALK TO A PROFESSIONAL ARTIST!

There is a time and a place to offer up advice. And if a magician does it at the wrong time and the wrong place they will CLOSE DOORS. But I can see that people like you don’t think that this kind of information is important. Or the café is not the place to talk about this. Or perhaps you don’t want people to learn this kind of thing. Or perhaps you like the others are offended because I don’t think much of people that think they have the right to do whatever they want.

Now if they wanted to start a thread and criticize me as a performer or talk about how bad of a speller I am then hey the café is a place they can do that. I have no problem with small people and I have no problem with magicians criticizing me at all. There is nothing personal in this and I have no problem with not teaching or passing on information that some magicians do not want.

But if you believe that and magicians are just HELPING I suggest that you go to a show and see Darwin Ortiz and then give him your opinion about his performing skills and see if this bonds the two of you together. As a performer I think Darwin Ortiz is GREAT and can do stuff that I just dream about.

But others like you have your opinion and you have to say things that are not that nice. To criticize him - Darwin Ortiz is a very successful guy. I do not think that saying things like this about successful - skilled and top magicians is helping them out. I think it is about personal ego and an enjoyment to knock the other guy - because you can and they can.
Quote:
On 2006-04-15 15:29, Dannydoyle wrote:
Make all the allusions to literature you feel you have too. The point is still valid.

By the way I talked about the subject matter of Gulliver’s Travels with Don Alan in a late night session. And he feels the same as I do. That the two worlds of the performing magician are the world of the giants and the professional magician is up against the giants of the business world when they get out there and do it.

But when he goes to the world of magicians it can be very much the land of Lilly-put.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Dannydoyle
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Glenn I didn't critisize your stuff remember>????????

I DIDN'T WATCH ON PURPOSE REMEMBER?

That way I could NOT be accused of EXACTLY what you are accusing me of!!!!!!!!

Now to be clear I never said you were not as good as your dad. IT IS NOT RELEVANT.

I said your father and others reached a higher level of respect! Know the difference.

The fact that nobody knows you IS relevant. IF they don't know you how can they accord you the level of respect you rightfully deserve? Pretty simple once you take time to stop being offended and realise I have been DEFENDING you!!!!!

I never said I felt it was HEALTHY to let critisizm fly. YOU siad that. I said it was the nature of the forum. Get it right. Don't change meanings with the NLP bs with me. I know better thank you.

When did I ever say your dad was NOT of artistic temperment? Not my words at ALL.

Being here on the Café' READ THE TOP OF THE PAGE!!!! Magicians helping magicians.

They thought they were in that vain. OOPS!!!!!!!!

I don't know how Darwin got brought up BUT I personally would rather have my knuckles smashed flat with a mallet that watch him. He puts me to sleep. SO WHAT? If he asked I would tell. If someone asks I tell. If he watched me and was bored I would hope he would say so!

Why is everyone so darned scared of honesty? I don't like him. Many Many many many do. SO WHAT? The person writing the check likes him. He works and me not liking him dosn't affect him in one way or the other. IF he knew I didn't like him he probably wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. BECAUSE HE IS REALISTIC. He knows that is why they make Strawberry and Vanilla.

You miss the point. NOBODY came up to you after a show here. They commented on something YOU pointed them too, from a page with the header "magicians helping magicians". Then you got mad when people offered what they thought was HELP!

This was my point from the jump. WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? How can the critical thoughts and "help" from people (in their eyes) be offensive and suprising and unexpected?

You always talk about the "flow" of information. But only listen to information that dosn't offend you or that you agree with. Pretty narrow.

So now your on Don Alans level? Just curious. HE may have been in Lilly Put, I am not sure how many of us are.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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