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tommy
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Quote:
On 2006-04-10 17:03, George Ledo wrote:
I'm really curious about something...

There have been a number of threads here over the past year or so on the subject of magic as an art form and as entertainment, and why magic is this or that. A lot of times members have said things to the effect of, "Well, that may apply to art, but it doesn't apply to magic," or "Well, that may apply to other forms of entertainment, but it doesn't apply to magic." From several of these discussions, I've gotten a distinct impression that a number of members here feel that magic is a world in itself, where nothing else applies.




George

All members who have said such things as "Well, that may apply to art, but it doesn't apply to magic," , I would say could not have read: "Our Magic". As a pure armature I find quite extraordinary that some professionals have not apparently read the book and I can not believe that they would say such things if they had. I would certainly respectfully suggest to those have not should do so. If they did they may well understand the book better than I do but whatever the result they would have a better understanding of the art than they appear to have. One thing they might see is: "The Art in Magic" is a very
different thing from "The Art of Magic." The latter term may embrace an
immense number of diverse considerations. The former relates to one side only of magic; a side which has never received the attention it deserves."
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 08:19, tommy wrote:... I find quite extraordinary that some professionals have not apparently read the book and I can not believe that they would say such things if they had. ...


And even when pointed to such works they will ignore. Such is the arrogance of those who confuse a petty ability to occasionally deceive with the ability to bring magic to people.

Not many here took up the task to read Gaiman's Sandman or Moore's Promethea either. Yet most will continue to prattle on about things that were once relevant, have since become clichés and from there gone on to serve as icons of the walls of a box that keeps magic outside the realm of the pertinent in our shared world.

Any thoughts about comparing the magic in Pullman's books to way of things in Rowling's or to C. L. Lewis's? Such is "our magic", correct?
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Bill Palmer
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Let's face it.

Very few magicians have any understanding at all about magic.

The ones that do are often misunderstood.

And some of the ones that think they do, don't.
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tommy
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I believe that even those who have never performed any magic do grasp and appreciate the art in magic if and when they are fortunate enough to see it.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
George Ledo
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 09:23, Bill Palmer wrote:
Let's face it.

Very few magicians have any understanding at all about magic.

So why is that?

We can go on discussing how easy it is for Uncle Joe (a certified muggle) to walk into a magic shop, buy a couple of tricks, and massacre them. The owner did not ask for his "I am a magician" card. And we all agree this is bad.

But he can also walk into a music shop, buy a piano score or two, go home, and drive away the cats for miles. The owner didn't ask him for his "I am a musician" card either. And this is bad too, especially for others in the house.

Or he can go to a Karaoke club and empty out the house in five seconds flat.

Or he can walk into a sporting goods store, buy a set of golf clubs, and proceed to **** off other people at the golf course for several hours. This is bad too... I've been behind quite a few of these Uncle Joes.

And so on and on.

Here's one of the areas where I get stuck trying to understand how people doing tricks badly "hurt magic." Uncle Joe didn't hurt piano music, or Karaoke (?), or golf. Even if he passed himself off as a pro (??) the people around him would have just figured he was bad... and back in the old days they would have booed him off the stage to make way for the next act, or asked him to leave the golf course. Ah, for the good old days... Smile

But to come back to your comment, Bill, I agree that a relatively small percentage of the people out there doing tricks understand magic. Jonathan summed it up in a very old-fashioned, to-the-point way. But how is it that we don't think of Uncle Joe as hurting piano, Karaoke (?), or golf, but we think he hurts magic? Does magic not fit into the way we think everywhere else?
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Jonathan Townsend
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How far can one walk around the "magic" and find it holds its glamor and illusion?

Phrased for fun ala Dr Seuss:
You say it's magical, and I agree
But magical for who and when we've yet to see
Can you do it in the rain?
Can you do it in the train?
Can you do it in the car?
Can you do it at the bar?
Can you do it later at the party?
Can you do it now for my friend?
Can you do it twenty years later for someone who brings a friend?

Though in all seriousness the basic ideas of "quality" come to mind here.
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bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 10:17, George Ledo wrote:

So why is that?

We can go on discussing how easy it is for Uncle Joe (a certified muggle) to walk into a magic shop, buy a couple of tricks, and massacre them. The owner did not ask for his "I am a magician" card. And we all agree this is bad.

But he can also walk into a music shop, buy a piano score or two, go home, and drive away the cats for miles. The owner didn't ask him for his "I am a musician" card either. And this is bad too, especially for others in the house.

Or he can go to a Karaoke club and empty out the house in five seconds flat.

Or he can walk into a sporting goods store, buy a set of golf clubs, and proceed to **** off other people at the golf course for several hours. This is bad too... I've been behind quite a few of these Uncle Joes.

And so on and on.

Here's one of the areas where I get stuck trying to understand how people doing tricks badly "hurt magic." Uncle Joe didn't hurt piano music, or Karaoke (?), or golf. Even if he passed himself off as a pro (??) the people around him would have just figured he was bad... and back in the old days they would have booed him off the stage to make way for the next act, or asked him to leave the golf course. Ah, for the good old days... Smile

I think that it is great that a guy like uncle Joe can go into a magic shop and get magic. I do not think an "I am a magician card" is needed to do magic for fun. Kids and adults can get into magic and there are benefits. Better speaking ability, Logic lessons are a part of magic. Better reading ability and I myself benefited greatly off that one - being dyslexic I would have never made it through high school had I not had magic force me to read.

The thing about magic is that it is hobby and a field that is filled with experts. Often in magic our good friend uncle Joe may join a club and keep it up but somewhere along the line he becomes an authority. The difference between magic and music is that if music sounds bad it sounds bad.

Magic - many people the idea is to fool the spectator - or to fool the audience. The fact that our friend uncle Joe can fool people with simple tricks often uncle Joe will fool himself into thinking that he is a good magician. When he is not and needs more experience.

That is part of human nature to be the know it all about something. And what better place to be a know it all than in a hobby where secrets are important. That alone will give him importance among his circle of muggles. The fact that he is a member of the club of secrets - the magicians.

Back in the early days of the SAM you had to be a pro to get in. Now they and other clubs let in people with just an interest in magic. It is easy to get the "I am a magician card" today. They let me in and if they let me in they will let in almost anyone.
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RandyStewart
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 10:17, George Ledo wrote:
We can go on discussing how easy it is for Uncle Joe (a certified muggle) to walk into a magic shop, buy a couple of tricks, and massacre them. The owner did not ask for his "I am a magician" card. And we all agree this is bad.

But he can also walk into a music shop, buy a piano score or two, go home, and drive away the cats for miles. The owner didn't ask him for his "I am a musician" card either. And this is bad too, especially for others in the house.


I wonder when this is true and applies, and it does many many times daily, did the shop owner load uncle Joe up with DVD's on Expert card tenchiques and Card manipulation that take years to master and other stage beauties that are NEVER pulled off well with thirty minutes of practice. The shop owner could very well do so.

Did the magic shop owner sell him 'complex tools/instruments' or packet tricks like those found in a good magic set for kids?

I love the analogy of musical instruments in this and similar topics as it strikes the perfect chord for understanding. Bill has done great to bring such analogy to the table.

Incidentally, George, I visited a music store with a friend recently. He had to get strings for guitars. Are you all aware of how expensive the top of the line is? Wow! Anyway, they had Kazoos for $3.00 at the counter and like Uncle Joe with his packet tricks, and musical instruments worth thousands all about me, I was entertained with the Kazoo in accordance with my music skill level - 0.

They also didn't ask for a 'musician's license'.
braddevant
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The reason Uncle Joe hurts magic but doesn't hurt piano music is because everyone has heard a lot of good piano players, they have a point of comparison. With magic Uncle Joe may be the only magician they ever see so the assumption is that magic is not entertaining, not that Uncle Joe is not entertaining.
Lets face it magic is the only entertainment field you can buy your way into. Any yo-yo with $50 can buy enough stuff at the local magic shop to bore many a scout troop.
As to the "art" question, no one will ever give magic more respect than we do, we need to look closely at the rehearsal mirror and be honest about what we see. Are we doing our part to advance the "art", or are we justifying the publics impression? This is a question we must each answer for ourself.
Jonathan Townsend
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Where it gets awkward is when uncle joe takes his newly bought kit of stuff to work and works on tricks at the place.

Next thing you know your boss is showing you T. Nelson Downs moves, the Balduci levitation and asking intelligent questions about gaffed coins and cards.

Ever seen a machine shop stop to all try out the levitation and ask you if they are doing it right?
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Tom Cutts
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Magic may be the only craft where the public voice is that of the novice. Artists are quickly engulfed by the copyists who delute and demean their art.
RandyStewart
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Hmmm..I hadn't thought about that as much as just walk away from this issue which I've never been able to put my finger on.

I wonder what would become of say 'dance' 'music' or 'paintings' if the public voice were the only voice in that type of art or craft.
tommy
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Quote:
On 2006-04-15 13:43, Tom Cutts wrote:
Magic may be the only craft where the public voice is that of the novice.


My voice says: What does that mean?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Tom Cutts
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Braddevant's post touches on one level of what this expresses. Reread that post from the bottom of the first page.
tommy
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Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Tom Cutts
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On a lighter note, here is how magic fits into the rest of the world:

thme raest gof thie worcld

;)
tommy
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'Gotcha! Merited self-worth.'?


Magicians can not perform magic in the fog.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Bill Palmer
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Glenn wrote:

Quote:

Back in the early days of the SAM you had to be a pro to get in. Now they and other clubs let in people with just an interest in magic. It is easy to get the "I am a magician card" today. They let me in and if they let me in they will let in almost anyone.



While it used to be much more difficult to get into the SAM than it is now, I don't think that it ever required that you be a "pro." One reason I feel this way is that I once had a chance to look at one of the early SAM rule books -- from the time of the great travelling shows.

Some of the provisions in it were (I'm paraphrasing here):
1) If an SAM member is in the audience when a professional magician gives the secret distres sign, the SAM members will come up and help him out.
2) When a professional magician comes to a town, the SAM will send a committee to meet him at the train station and help him transport his gear to the theatre.

Plus all the usual non-exposure things that are in the rules now. I found those two provisions quite amusing.

When I joined (1960), the investigating committee from the local club actually approached me and asked me questions about why I wanted to be a member of the SAM. They wanted to know what I expected to get out of it.

IBM had a reputation of being the easy club to join.

I felt like I had really done something when I got my SAM card.

I don't think Uncle Joe hurts magic. He at least entertains the kids when he pulls the quarter out of their ear. But I think that some of the people who claim to be pro's who do bad magic and charge for it make it much more difficult for the rest of us to do what we do. It certainly makes it more difficult for them to accept us as performers, much less artists.

But as far as magic, itself, suffering -- Nah.
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RandyStewart
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[quote]On 2006-04-15 21:35, Bill Palmer wrote:
Glenn wrote:

Quote:

Back in the early days of the SAM you had to be a pro to get in. Now they and other clubs let in people with just an interest in magic. It is easy to get the "I am a magician card" today. They let me in and if they let me in they will let in almost anyone.


Don't sweat it member. Some like myself are not SAM/IBM members for that and other reasons.

"I wouldn't want to be a Member of any club that accepts Me as a Member" - Groucho Marx,


Keep doing great things, go forward and sin no more, and elevate the art.

Respectfully staying out of the way,

Randy
tommy
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Karl? or his brother - Groucho. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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