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AGMagic
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Bill is right. There is a variation in tennis balls. I tried 3 different balls in my cups (not Phoenix) and found one fits nicely, one goes in but sticks, and one won't even fit inside the cups. Minor differences, but just enough to be a problem.

BTW you can find Tom Frank's contact info at http://www.industrialstrengthmagic.com
I think it is only right to contact him if you think you have a problem with the cups.

Tim
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TheAmbitiousCard
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I can load a baseball in my cellini cups (after finding proper ones) but often just load small oranges or roundish lemons becuase they are quieter, and easier to load.

I really think that the difference between a lemon and a load that "doesn't look like it could fit" is not that much given when it happens. the surprise factor seems to overpower the moment. I think that the spectators are thinking, "now where did those come from" not "now how on earth did that fit in there".

An exception would be when something drops out that did not really come from the cup, such as Paul Gertner's Steel Ball.

And if you do a hat load, well, all eyes are off the fruit at that point and onto the melon or whatever.


Use what is comfortable. Concerned about flashing? Use something smaller until you're not. Better to be doing the trick with a smaller load for a while than sitting at home panicing and not doing it at all.
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Julie
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You also might want to try "tennis balls" from the pet store--they look like real tennis balls, but are a trifle smaller.
François
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I use eggs as a final loads... and I break them an make a white silk appear with a yellow one nested in the middle. The only trouble is that you have to prepare 3 eggs each time you want to perform.
You make one hole on each side of the egg,empty the white and yellow, you can swallow it if you like..(beurk..really disgusting...)
The hardest part is to clean the interior of the shell, water not to hot and vinegar and after soft water.
After load your silks in,the hole must be of a certain diameter, bid enough to load the silk,but not to big, so you can hide them with your fingers.
Of course you can use yellow or white crocheted balls. Pete is right.
I think there are so many variations for the final loads, that it is not an obligation to use classic tennis balls or any other type of "ball". Just load your cups with imagination, it works too!!!

François
Mad Jake
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New Phoenix II cups will take a tennis ball with ease, the no longer have any rock to them, the attic space? The cups will now nest (3) 1 1/8"

Engineering changes did not exceed more than 1/16th of an inch for any given
change. The mouth beads are now rolled to the body of the cup. The center bead was increased by 1/16th of an inch in width and moved 1/32nd of an inch up. The saddle was increased by 1/16th of an inch in diameter which corrected the blend from the saddle ridge to the bead. Tennis balls load and release easily as they should. Cup weight has increased by 1/4oz.

THE PHOENIX HAS ONCE AGAIN MADE A RISE FROM THE ASHES!

Pictures will be posted this weekend after we consult with Tom Frank.

Jake
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
TheAmbitiousCard
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If you fix all the quirks then what are we going to talk about all day long?

By the way Jake, the mini stainless Paul fox cups are great for a small walk around set of cups. I love 'em.
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Yeah right...this is the kind of hype I can get excited about! D*MN!!! Man count me in on this one...I'd almost sell my soul for the...

PERFECT PHOENIX

Man I hope it's somewhat affordable, 'cuz I wouldn't really sell my soul...wood eye? let's here more!

johnny
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Tim/AG Magic, I agree that it was only right to get in touch with Tom regarding the problem. I did do so immediately, and also bought a variety of tennis balls from different manufacturers, all of which stuck.

Other than the initial response from him, I received NO further replies from him, including from his website which you posted. That's unfortunate, but not my fault. I wanted to get things resolved, and tried to the best of my ability. I cannot be responsible for his not following up, and can only say it didn't happen.

I appreciate your thought that I have some responsibility to try it again, but I will point out that I would hope some responsibility for the lack of contact falls on him. I don't want to cast more time at the problem, although if he wishes to get in contact with me, he can do so through the Café. I have no objection to his investing a bit of effort in this, because I certainly have.

And, in case he does read this, I still have the Cups in their original packing material and the shipping box he sent me. I am still hoping to send them back, although I now want a refund, because I am not confident of a followup that may never come.

Thank you for the website information, again. I have tried it previously, to no avail.

Cheers!
Mad Jake
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Wow, this is hardly the forum or open air areana to be casting aspursions about sellers or performers with good reputations. Especially since Tom is a busy single parent busking his ass off to make a living for he and his family.

The initial post I saw here was the tennis balls sticking in the cups, well after reviewing Tom's auction ad, no where does it state or picture tennis balls as final loads. I have 1 set of original DD/PF cups that take a tennis ball, yep, snuggly but the tennis balls fit, but that is the only set, but then again it was never advertised to take such a load. If you went on the word of just one or two people, you asked the wrong people as you should have asked the seller directly about the cups taking tennis balls.

Also don't forget this is a big family holiday. We shut down RNT II Wednesday morning and everyone is off until next Wednesday, Easter holiday is a big holiday for a lot of families.

All in all your post of your auction problems and communication with the seller is out of line and certainly has no place in this forum.

If you need a refund that bad, PM and I'll refund you the auction cost and Tom can square up with me when he has time, that's how confident I am that Tom Frank is a square and trustworty businesman and PERSON.

Jake
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Mad Jake
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Quote:
On 2006-04-14 02:12, johnnymystic wrote:
Yeah right...this is the kind of hype I can get excited about! D*MN!!! Man count me in on this one...I'd almost sell my soul for the...

PERFECT PHOENIX

Man I hope it's somewhat affordable, 'cuz I wouldn't really sell my soul...wood eye? let's here more!

johnny


Keep holding onto your hat Johnny, I've been eyeballing it for awhile, I already have 2 wood eyes, 3 wooden quarters and 1/2 wooden nickel, but that hat really has my eye <lol>

Jake
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Mad Jake
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 17:03, Frank Starsini wrote:
If you fix all the quirks then what are we going to talk about all day long?

By the way Jake, the mini stainless Paul fox cups are great for a small walk around set of cups. I love 'em.




Frank,

thanks for the kind words of the Mini PF cups, I use my stainless all the time, but I left them unfinished.

The biggest noticable change in the Phoenix II cups is of course the mouth bead, when we finished the final prototype, I was like "what the hell is this?" The tight mouth bead changes the whole look, but again with some very minor engineering changes bit by bit, we increased the attic space without making these cups tumblers, the new height and diameter only changed by 1/16th of an inch in the right places.

Jake
For quality Paul Fox Cups spun on Danny Dew's Paul Fox tooling visit us at www.airshipmagic.com
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2006-04-13 09:28, quickhands wrote:
First of all, let me thank everyone for their great advice and comments. I think that Pete Biro makes a great point aobut performing the cups and what I should be focusing on right now. However, wouldn't you agree that there are 2 issues here: One, is whether you should be concerned with the size and nature of the load, particularly at this stage; the other, is whether your cups are capable of taking a particular load. I agree that what makes the load work is the difference in size respect to the little balls. However, wouldn't you agree that a larger load makes the effect more deceiving? In addition, imagine that you just bought a car that is advertised to do 0 to 60 mph in 5 seconds. Perhaps you would never have to do that, and if you are learning, there are more important things to work on. However, wouldn't you be concerned if your car fails the test?

Thanks,

QH.


Find me a post where Tom Frank states that these cups will take a tennis ball, or an ad where Tom says that they will take a tennis ball, and I'll agree that you have a problem. But if you can't find a statement from Tom, himself, that these cups will take a tennis ball, then you really don't have a complaint.

My Phoenix cups take the tennis balls I have tried in them. Yours don't. The solution -- take the cup to a store and try different balls in them. Try a pet shop.

But if there is no direct statement from Tom, then you don't have a complaint. It would be like saying "Well, my neighbor said his Prius will do 0 to 60 in 5 seconds, but mine won't," and using that as a reason to get rid of the car. If the manufacturer doesn't advertise it, nothing else matters.
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Bill Palmer
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I will add a further bit to this. Paul Fox cups have been described in many places, my cups and balls museum included, as being able to take a lacrosse ball. When I got my first set of Paul Fox cups, I thought they were defective, because the first lacrosse ball I tried in them would not fit. I took the cups to a sporting goods store and found that about 1 in every 10 lacrosse balls at that store was just about a 32nd of an inch larger in diameter than the rest of them, and that was enough to make a difference. The Paul Fox design is almost cylindrical at the bottom, whereas the Phoenix cup is tapered. So a ball won't fit all the way into it, will at least go partway in.
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I am not casting aspersions. I have given what happened, without embellishment. You may not agree with my opinions, but the facts are what they are.

The tennis ball comment is, in fact, what was on the eBay ad, and may possibly still be. I kept a copy of it when I first ran into a problem, but he continued to list that as a feature (the tennis ball fitting) even after I had gotten in touch with him.

In any case, I will stand by my comments. I am not slagging him due to his status as a single parent; I am one as well, and didn't expect the problem, or even the problem with the exchange or the refund.

If there was a problem with my stating the truth, I'm sorry, but the truth is what it is: inconvenient at times, but the truth.

Cheers!
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I was curious so I did some looking. Nowhere in the ads did he claim a tennis ball would fit. One potential customer asked if tennis balls would fit, and Tom said "Tennis balls will go into the cup, but as fuzzy as they are seem to get wedged bit."

If the buyer continued the purchase after this comment, then he only has himself to blame.

Simply find a different load and move on with your life. Smile
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
Mad Jake
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General Motors/Pontiac, I agree that it was only right to get in touch with GM regarding the problem. I did do so immediately, and also bought a variety of cases of tennis balls from different manufacturers, all of which got stuck in the hatchback of the TransAm they sold me.

Other than the initial response from GM/Pontiac, I received NO further replies from them, including from their website which you posted. That's unfortunate, but not my fault. I wanted to get things resolved, and tried to the best of my ability. I cannot be responsible for the President of GM not following up, and can only say it didn't happen.

I appreciate your thought that I have some responsibility to try it again, but I will point out that I would hope some responsibility for the lack of contact falls on GM. I don't want to cast more time at the problem, although if GM wishes to get in contact with me, they can do so through the Café. I have no objection to his investing a bit of effort in this, because I certainly have.

And, in case he does read this, I still have the TransAM in their original packing material and the shipping box that GM sent the car in to me. I am still hoping to send the TransAm back, although I now want a refund, because I am not confident of a followup that may never come. And my TransAm is too small to hold my balls.

Thank you for the website information, again. I have tried it previously, to no avail.

Cheers!
WITF Jake
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Bill Palmer
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There was a young man from old Boston,
Who bought himself a new Austin.
There was room for his da
da da gallon of gas
But his da da da and he lost 'em.

I have been given a link to Tom's blog which shows the original ad for the Phoenix cups, which states that they will take a tennis ball.

Mine will. I re-tested them last night. So will my Miller cups and my Bertram cups. The balls I am using are some I bought at Walgreen's in a bag of a dozen. They are really cheap tennis balls. They have no label. They are also not as fuzzy as some others I have seen.

I must say in fairness to Tom, and making no excuse for him, nor any defense, either, that the reason he hasn't returned phone calls or e-mails for a few days is that he is probably busy earning a living.

Not everyone sits in front of a computer with his butt glued to an executive chair 12 hours out of 24, like I do. Some people answer e-mail once a week.
"The Swatter"

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geemack
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To quickhands and Ignore me...,

There is a dealer on eBay selling Phoenix Cups who does state in his ad, "These cups will take a tennis ball for a load!!" That particular dealer is based in Philadelphia. He is not Tom Frank, maker and primary distributor of the Phoenix Cups, who works out of Seattle. If you purchased your cups from that Philadelphia dealer, you should be discussing the issue with him, not the manufacturer. As Bill said, nowhere in his eBay ads does Tom Frank indicate the Phoenix Cups should be able to accommodate a tennis ball as a load.

Oh, and also as Bill mentioned, those by-the-dozen toy tennis balls without any labels or logos are slightly smaller than regulation. I found mine at Toys-R-Us. They fit great in the Montis and Johnson cups, and would probably be perfect for those Phoenix Cups, too. In fact, I like them especially because they don't have trademarks or other markings on them.

Greg
Bill Palmer
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I just made a pilgrimage to Wally World (for those of you in Rio Linda, that's Wal-Mart) and to the Dollar Store, to purchase various types of tennis balls, just to see which ones of the current batches these will take.

My cups are a set of the 200 cups that were issued with a certificate and a set of chrome plated ones.

I had little difficulty getting the Penn brand tennis ball to go all the way into the cup, but it took some shaking to get it out. The Wilson tennis balls would not fit at all. I tried two different types. The "Sponge Bob Square Pants" tennis balls would not fit, either. All of these would fit into the Sherwoods and the Foxy II.V cups. Also, the low pressure tennis balls would not fit. I don't know how to account for the apparent difference in diameters of the Penn and the Wilson tennis balls.

However, when it came to the pet balls, the results were completely different. The pet balls have a lower nap, that is, less fuzz, and they dropped right down into the Phoenix cups. This seemed to be fairly consistent across the board.

There were some neat red ones from Milk Bone and some with stars and stripes like an American flag from another manufacturer.

The ones I purchased at Walgreen's or Eckerd's in a bag of a dozen were these no-name balls from China, which fit perfectly, as I mentioned before.

So, that's what's out there.
"The Swatter"

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Bill Palmer
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So, I went to the International Tennis Federation web site to see what the inside dope on Regulation Tennis balls was. Here is the word:

Rule of 2002

. The ball shall be more than two and a half inches (6.350 cm) and less than two and five-eighths inches (6.668 cm) in diameter, and more than two ounces (56.0 grams) and less than two and one-sixteenth ounces (59.4 grams) in weight.


APPENDIX I iv. In all tests for diameter a ring gauge shall be used consisting of a metal plate, preferably non-corrosive, of a uniform thickness of on-eighth of an inch (.318 cm). In the case of Ball Type 1 (fast speed) and Ball Type 2 (medium speed) balls there shall be two circular openings in the plate measuring 2.575 inches (6.541 cm) and 2.700 inches (6.858 cm) in diameter respectively. In the case of Ball Type 3 (slow speed) balls there hall be two circular openings in the plate measuring 2.750 inches 6.985 cm) and 2.875 inches (7.302 cm) in diameter respectively. The inner surface of the gauge shall have a convex profile with a radius of one-sixteenth of an inch (.159 cm). The ball shall not drop through the smaller opening by its own weight and shall drop through the larger opening by its own weight.

Notice that they do not mention Phoenix cups or Sherwood cups. Smile

By actual measurement, even the Pet Toy balls fit within the extremes of these measurements. They measure about 2.52 inches in diameter which, by the dimensions given in the first part of the rule, would be more than 2.5 inches. Whether they would remain in the smaller ring gauge may be an entirely different matter.

But a 1/8 inch variation is rather large, I think.

There is less variation in the size of a lacrosse ball, being 2.47 to 2.55 inches in diameter.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
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