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robin_martin
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Magicsquared I'm sorry the manuscript wasn't what you were looking for. Can you PM me the email address you paid with so that I can refund you. I don't think it's fair that you should be paying if you aren't satisfied.
The secret of the mind is the secret of the self.
http://www.robin-martin.com/photorecall.html
robin_martin
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I should also add that without tipping the method I don't belive the issue with the suits is as bad as you are making it out to be but that's for each and everyone to decide.
Secondly the advanced version of the effect doesn't have this same problem and at £4.99 I believe is worth the price of the manuscript alone but once again as in the above I'm not in the best position to comment on this. I'll let the above reviews speak for themselves.
The secret of the mind is the secret of the self.
http://www.robin-martin.com/photorecall.html
Magicsquared
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Robin,

The issue with the suits might not be a big deal for some, but it's a big deal for me because that was the reason I purchased the effect. I thought it was going to be a step forward from previous versions of this effect, but instead it's exactly the same as previous versions (you still can't name the suit).

You don't have to refund my money. It was my mistake to buy the effect before this had been reviewed by someone knowledgable that I trust.
Christopher Williams
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Portsmouth, UK
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I feel the factor you are bringing up MagicSquared is easily sorted and helpful. It solves one thing I hate in magic, the too perfect theory. Derren Brown uses this approach similarly to his live work if you get to see it. He is torn between 2 answers, and usually knows which is the right one, but might guess wrong to get rid of the too perfect theory. I PMed Robin a few ideas that I came up with instantly with him, and if you want 100% hit rate, well, I came up with that, I leave it to Robin if he wishes to tip my methods for 100% hit rate to this. I think it is great. Yes it takes practice, and I have a way to make this a lot easier that if Robin wants I can explain to him to help others with. I found it a little hard at first, until I thought of this method, that everyone knows, they just cant remember that they know.
www.magicman13.co.uk

Copies of the limited edition 'MindPlay' still available
Magicsquared
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Christopher, you misunderstood me, my issue with this effect isn't that it's difficult to do (it's not). My issue is that this is not original and has been around for ages. The way the ad is written it makes it seem like there has been a significant advancement over previous methods in how this effect is achieved, but there hasn't been.
Christopher Williams
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Hi Magicsquared, the difficulty factor was to anyone who hasnt got it and has, not directed at you, as EVENT said:

'But I have one problem, I find the process little hard (i don't want to tip the method) I think it's require some training (that worth it).'

As for the ad, Ads are created for an effect overview, not to tip anything or tell you who its building upon, that is the magicians discretion. He doesn't state this is a new idea or concept, if he did, he would have said so, just like Ben Harris did with Hole in Head. The ad does what it says it does, that's the main thing. The presentation is a new idea, and the price isn't bad one bit, so I see no reason personally for complaints, but the man has offered a refund which is very noble and rare among magicians these days
www.magicman13.co.uk

Copies of the limited edition 'MindPlay' still available
Magicsquared
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Christopher, the ad says that I can tell the spectator exactly what card she picked, but you can't. The presentation that is provided is as old as the method itself (which is older than our ages combined). The "bonus" effects do dress up the presentation some, but the memory work required to perform the bonus effects could just as easily be applied to do those effects for real.

You may feel the price is right, but I disagree. Especially since a member here (Conus) was giving away a free and better version of this effect in secret sessions just a few months ago. He may still give it to you if you ask:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......7&25
lewis
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I don't know how people can complain about this. For £4.99 its one of the cheapest magic things ive bought this year - and its the one ive performed the most. And ive only had it about a week.

Unbeatable value for money I must say Robin...and it looks like I'm not the only one with this view...



Lewis.
p.b.jones
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I don't know how people can complain about this. For £4.99 its one of the cheapest magic things ive bought this year - and its the one ive performed the most. And ive only had it about a week.

Unbeatable value for money I must say Robin...and it looks like I'm not the only one with this view...

HI,
I do not think it is money which is the issue here , but rather wether the item is original enough to Robin to warrant marketing at all! Magicsquared is it even original enough to give robin the right to explain it for free ?

Phillip
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2006-04-20 09:17, lewis wrote:
I don't know how people can complain about this. For £4.99 its one of the cheapest magic things ive bought this year - and its the one ive performed the most. And ive only had it about a week.

Unbeatable value for money I must say Robin...and it looks like I'm not the only one with this view...

Lewis.


hey, if you want to pay your money for an inferior version of an effect that has been around for a long time, knock yourself out.

I agree that you're not the only one that seems to like it, I might like it too if I hadn't read the same principle dozens of times over the years. Harry Lorayne popularized it and refined it with his Epitome Location, but it predates him by many years.

It's well known enough to have at least two threads here dedicated to it:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......;forum=2

and

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=110

I don’t believe Robin was knowingly ripping anybody off, I just think he wasn’t familiar with this. That’s fine, but he just should have done a bit more research before marketing it.

There are hundreds of people on this forum familiar with this principle, and for their sake I wanted to let them know that they aren’t purchasing an improvement on this principle.

I have zero bias here. I bought it and I wanted to like it and I’m happy to support people releasing their effects independently. The issue is that this isn’t original and wasn’t an improvement on the many versions that already exist.
lewis
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Do the epitome location and other effects include versions that deal with word cards and picture cards etc?
robin_martin
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Not to my knowledge.
The secret of the mind is the secret of the self.
http://www.robin-martin.com/photorecall.html
Magicsquared
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Quote:
On 2006-04-20 12:27, lewis wrote:
Do the epitome location and other effects include versions that deal with word cards and picture cards etc?


I doubt they do because that's a poor use of this technique. If you had the ability to perform this with picture cards you would, in effect, be secretly using the same skill you're openly demonstrating. It would be lunacy.

It would be like having a gambling demonstration where you do pseudo-second deals, but in order to accomplish the demonstration you had to do real second deals. It makes no sense.
lewis
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Neither does your post
Magicsquared
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I don't know how I can be any clearer without exposing. Sorry you can't follow it.

I guess what I'm saying is that the basic effect, while good, isn't original.

AND

The bonus effects, while maybe original, aren't good because if you had the skill required to perform the bonus effects then you could do things much more impressive than remembering which 1 of 20 pictures or words is missing.

I'll bow out of this thread now. I know the guy who put this out is just hoping to make a buck, I can't begrudge him that, and I've more than said my piece about the effect.
kamus
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My mini review:

The short version: the principle has some merit but the effect overall is not worth the money.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not out to bash Robin- frankly, I know nothing about him. I paid for the effect and received it immediately with a note from Robin encouraging me to post my impressions so I believe that he cares about customer service and feedback.

What you get: A nine page PDF file. Of those nine pages one page each was devoted to Title, table of contents, Introduction and effect description. The actual trick comprises one and a third pages. That's not a lot of information for $9.00. One page is devoted to the advanced handling, one page for alternate suggestions and a final page with some random thoughts and suggestions for further reading.

My impressions: First of all, I take issue with the effect description: it is simply not accurate. It omits the fact that you will be guessing the suit (though you will know the color) and therefore can expect to be wrong 50% of the time. Robin says "To some of you reading this you may feel that this is not how the effect is laid out in the description. However what is laid out in the effect description with good performance skills is what the audience will remember."

I'm sorry but this just doesn't fly with me. A manuscript of this sort is sold primarily on the basis of the effect description and while Robin's intentions may have been innocent, it is misleading and has real potential to anger customers. He should have written a more accurate effect description and made the comment about what the audience may remember (which may well be true) in the notes.

The method: Obviously, I don't want to reveal method here but I find the method disappointing on a couple of levels. First off, if this is based on Lorayne's Epitome effect it should be an improvement. I gather from Magicsquared's comments that it is not (I should mention that I was not familiar with Harry's effect). Even if it is, it's a little underwhelming. There are four main weaknesses in my view: 1) The effect requires the performer to engage in mental gymnastics throughout the entire procedure with a reasonable chance for error. 2) Since the performer is, by necessity, preoccupied with these gymnastics, it presents a challenge to the performer to enliven the tedious process of going through the entire deck with patter or byplay for fear of screwing up the calculations (yes, you actually have to carry on two simultaneous calculations). 3) The method is dangerously close to how a laymen might try to figure this out himself. 4) A further weakness is the fact that there will be no real climax as the audience knows what you are attempting to do- it boils down to "will he/she succeed or fail?". Most audiences will asssume (given that the magician hasn't messed up previous effects, that he will succeed- thus no real climax.

On the plus side, many audience members will give you credit for having a good memory, but I really don't think it's worth the effort. Check out Corinda's "memorized deck" from 13 Steps for a snappier, easier (much easier!) version that will leave the audience with generally the same impression.

The advance handling is also do-able, but the additional principle involved has been put to much better use in other tricks. He also doesn't go into detail on that additional principle, leaving you to do the research if you are unfamiliar with it.

The additional suggestions are just a few tips and they are pretty bare bones suggestions at that.

The whole manuscript strikes me as not terribly well thought out and there is little in the way of the kind of tips and real life performance examples that would suggest that this trick has been adequately field tested.

In conclusion, I would say that this trick is a bit iffy, but if properly performed could be no doubt be impressive. I don't think the effort is really worth it though and it will be difficult to cover the tedious procedure of going through the entire deck, card by card, in an entertaining manner. I don't feel that it is worth the money and should have been part of a trick collection. Virtually every page of Anneman's "Practical Mental Magic" contains ideas just as good and frankly many that are superior. If I could get my money back, I would. I really wanted to give this a good review (hey, I spent the dough!) but in good conscience, I cannot.

Rating: 3 out of 10
il illegetimi est non carborundum

http://www.davidkanemusic.com
kamus
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I should note that the Corinda trick I mentioned is not another version of Robin's trick- it is a different effect but one in which the audience may credit you with having a fantastic memory.

Also I tried to delete the line in my post (I went over the 30 minute limit) where I said I wanted my money back. While I don't feel the trick was worth $9.00, I did learn a potentially useful principle from it and I may apply it in some other form later on. So, the trick does have some intrinsic value and thus I cannot ethically expect my money back unless there was a way to selectively forget what I just read.

Instead, I would encourage Robin to consider my notes and the comments of others on this thread: perhaps improve the trick (if you could nail the suit, that would be a substantial improvement-though I do understand the "too perfect" concerns), maybe flesh out the manuscript with real world advice, perhaps charge less but above all, to write a more accurate effect description.

I think it's important to encourage creators and it's obvious from Robin's comments on this thread and his offer to refund money that he is a sincere guy and not trying to rip anybody off. I wish him success.
il illegetimi est non carborundum

http://www.davidkanemusic.com
lewis
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Hi,

Please direct questions to Robin himself, as I am only the reviewer Smile
Harry Lorayne
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Guys: I would tell you to get my THE EPITOME LOCATION, but it's out of print. It is updated and re-written in LORAYNE: THE CLASSIC COLLECTION. And, there are miracle effects included. Plus, if you can find a copy of RIM SHOTS, you'll also find how to solve the problem of not knowing the suit. HARRY LORAYNE.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
Harry Lorayne
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PS: And, I wrote the "Missing Card Stunt" in my first book on memory, in 1956. Except that doing it with one card, is silly. Also, I do my Epitome Location in one QUICK run-through of the deck. As do many. Max Maven would fool the pants of you with it. Having the spec. show you one card at a time is a bore. It sure as h*** isn't magic. And, Magicsquared makes it sound as if I ripped someone off. I state quite clearly that the idea goes back to antiquity. It was old when I was a kid - and nobody could do the d*** thing so that it looked like magic. I simply made it WORKABLE. Anyway... HARRY LORAYNE.
[email]harrylorayne@earthlink.net[/email]

http://www.harrylorayne.com
http://www.harryloraynemagic.com
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