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tommy
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When in Rome do as the Roman. You are stuck with your face and you can’t do much about that. If they don’t happen to like it, they might feed you to the lions no matter how nice you are. How they perceive “you” does not matter so much as how they perceive the magic. If they perceive it as witchcraft they might burn you at the stake. Don’t say you was not warned. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Dannydoyle
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Again we get to the "grab props off the shelf" nonsense.

The problem with Glenn and Tommy's point of view in my humble opinion is this.

At what point do either of you even consider the AUDIENCE>?

See when you just grab props off the shelf and try to do them, the audience has to suffer through some really bad magic. To encourage this is to encourage bad magic.

Now when MONEY is the motivating factor you are essentiall in a "customer service" industry. THE AUDIENCE IS ALL THAT MATTERS.

Schulien knew it, Heba knew it, Jim Ryan knew it, and yet everyone seems to forget this, even though they trumpeted it from the rooftops!

Oh and by thwe way the "perception" the audience has, starts LONG before you take the stage or approach a table, if you have done things right up till that point.

Againi the problem with "grab the props and do it" is that NONE of this work is done. IT MAKES MY POINT.

The problem is a BAD performance uplifts NOBODY. Not the audience and not the performer.

The problem is that it takes time to be an artist. It takes time to be a busienss man. "Grab the props and do it" is an easy solution, that creates a host of other problems. You will never rise above a certian level when this is how things are done.

This is not as tough a concept as others seem to think.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Dannydoyle
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Troblem is "grab the props" is neither good art or good business, so why do it?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
tommy
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I don't agree with "grab the props" as it happens Danny. I don't know where or how you got the idea that I did.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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The idea of doing magic for some is to HAVE FUN.

What is "GOOD ART" is subjective, having fun with a hobby that many enjoy is the reason people like and do magic. People get into magic to HAVE FUN. magic is great because it is one of the few HOBBIES that anyone can HAVE FUN and then use it to MAKE SOME MONEY and then buy magic with that money. AND THEN HAVE MORE FUN!

Magic is also loaded with people that get in the way of others having fun and say - no it is serious theater - no you need a script - magic is work - magic is being wrecked by you guys having fun and not taking magic seriously. Bad magicians and bad magic shows wreck magic. Bla bla.

Don't you know that you need a script for that break-away-wand?

Take the props read the instructions, practice with the props, find an audience, get out there and have some fun, learn more about yourselves and magic by doing so. Later on - use it to make some money and invest it into more magic and have MORE FUN!

Lighten up and use magic up-lift others. Give the GIFT of magic!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
rannie
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Going back to the original question, "what is hurting Magic", I think that nothing is really hurting magic per se. I think certain magicians are hurting. For as long as there are thoughtful and creative magicians out there , working continously on their acts and original presentations for the paying public or the end users, I think, there is nothing that could hurt magic at this point.

My friend Glenn, I do agree that we should all lighten up and have fun. After all this is what it is all about. However, as an artist, I feel magicians who want to make money, must see things differently. Being serious does not always mean not having fun. If we talk about magic as a profession and not as a hobby per se, a great amount of responsibility comes along with it. The paying public, deserves this act of seriousness, in the form of thought out routines, original if possible, and sorry to irk some friends, theater.

We agree most if not all the time , I have my share of great fun with magic and I enjoy it now more than ever, but I do take this art seriously. Anything of the shelf must be enjoyed by the hobbyist to the fullest. He paid dearly for it after all but not to make money. I feel "Boxed" or routines from the shelf, must not be done professionally. The hobbyinst, if he or she plans to make money out of this art, must alliviate themselves to the next level befor they attempt to make money out of Magic.

Just recently in Manila, an agent booked 15 walk around magicians for a tradeshow. I was in utter shock when I found out that the magicians hired or booked by this agent, happened to be hobbyists. Worse, total beginners. I got to watch them perform for me in a club meeting and , I tell you, they would perform using the instructions that came with the effect sold. Almost word for word. This is what I call, GRAB THE PROPS type of magic. It is like sending cadets to war with only a few bullets without even a gun.

Glenn, I hope I do not offend as I respect you as a magical thinker and card man, but I would say that,,,,, yes! Even a break away wand deserves a reason or motivation, to be used. Otherwise, the wand ends up as a mere gag.

These are just opinions.

Have a great day fellow magicians, We are having fun right? Great!

Rannie
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."

-Rannie Raymundo-
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Dannydoyle
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Glenn the road you describe has DISASTER written all over it.

Who does a BAD magic performance up lift? Certianly not the audience.
It is a GIFT as you call it that most would return at the earliest possible second.

Again you are so self centered in your thoughts. WHO CARES IF YOU HAVE FUN?

The audience pays 25 bucks apice to see me. Do you think they care in the least if I am having a good time? THEY want to have fun!

Your equasion leaves out the audience completly.

Your formula may be a self realisiation or an excuse for the way things work out in reality for you, but in the real world, this is not how things go.

Try telling an agent, "hey I am just grabbing some props, so I can have fun" "I am giving them the gift of magic".

Yea do that and then wait and see how many times the phone rings.

Tell a client, "I will just grab some things, but at least I will have fun doing the show, then I can invest the money in more magic". Again wait for the phone.

The point is magic is not done for US. Nobody cares why you got into magic. All they care about is you have been in it long enough to make THEM have fun at the time they bought their ticket.

Any nonsense about having fun, grabbing props, giving the gift of magic and any other rationalizations you want to coin, do not help the audience.

Remember the audience? Without them all magic would be is "theory"! Lets try to consider them in our equasion. It is THEM we work for. Study for and try to entertain.

Didn't any dead magicians say something about that?
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-24 16:22, rannie wrote:
Just recently in Manila, an agent booked 15 walk around magicians for a tradeshow. I was in utter shock when I found out that the magicians hired or booked by this agent, happened to be hobbyists. Worse, total beginners. I got to watch them perform for me in a club meeting and , I tell you, they would perform using the instructions that came with the effect sold.

Hey rannie I understand this problem and this is one of the problems that doing magic as a profession has "sometimes". This is partly the agents problem of not understanding. Or perhaps it is the agents problem in being able to tell a magician that does it as a hobby from a magician that has experience.

First of all the agents that book today are changing things like this by using video. That way a client can choose who he wants to higher for the job.

Yet it still happens and if magicians that get booked and do not have the experience and they do a bad job for the client - most likely they end up not getting the job next year. So the market place has a way of getting rid of the bad apples by itself.

On the professional level of performing the magician will only be a financial success if his or her show MEETS the DEMANDS OF THE BUSINESS.

I am not talking about the professional level when I tell magicians to find an audience and go out and have fun with magic. I am talking about magicians doing small shows around where they live like an eight year old kid did with a little red wagon - I talked about him in another thread.
Quote:
On 2006-04-24 16:22, rannie wrote:
This is what I call, GRAB THE PROPS type of magic. It is like sending cadets to war with only a few bullets without even a gun.

rannie magicians got to start somewhere. At the show you mention is not the place to do it. There are a lot of small shows out there magicians can do and they do not involve an agent. I don't know how good the agents are or what they are like where you live. But most of the agents I have done work for I had to send them a video of me working and then go in to meet them and show them what I can do.

I think that magicians take magic to seriously. As I said before I am not asking or telling people to "Grab some props" and then go out and knock one the doors of agents or the doors in Las Vegas. In a way they have to learn to swim first. But they will never learn to swim without first getting in the water.

What your taking about is when they jump in deep water before they are ready and I have in no way advised that or suggested that! But they can have fun in the shallow end of the pool.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Dannydoyle
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Glenn you have suggested so many different things it is tough to actually keep track.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
rannie
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"The point is magic is not done for US. Nobody cares why you got into magic. All they care about is you have been in it long enough to make THEM have fun at the time they bought their ticket."

Dannydoyle

This is so true! As a business, it (Magic) can be very giving (financially, depending of course on your level as a performer and your business acumen), but as an art , it seem so selfless. Selfless in a sense that , at the end of the day , its the happiness of the audience that counts. Being happy doing it is just one FAT BONUS! I am happy to say that I am one of the lucky and blessed ones who makes people happy as they make me happy!

..............................

rannie magicians got to start somewhere. At the show you mention is not the place to do it. There are a lot of small shows out there magicians can do and they do not involve an agent. I don't know how good the agents are or what they are like where you live. But most of the agents I have done work for I had to send them a video of me working and then go in to meet them and show them what I can do.

I think that magicians take magic to seriously. As I said before I am not asking or telling people to "Grab some props" and then go out and knock one the doors of agents or the doors in Las Vegas. In a way they have to learn to swim first. But they will never learn to swim without first getting in the water.

What your taking about is when they jump in deep water before they are ready and I have in no way advised that or suggested that! But they can have fun in the shallow end of the pool."

Glenn


Glenn, I agree with you here! You got to get into the water if you want to learn to swim! I believe the members were talking on the professional level, and that might have caused some misunderstanding. On the pro level, there is really all the reasons to be serious. Then again this is my opinion ,but modesty aside this is what got me to where I am in my world. On a casual club setting, a lecture , a gathering of magicians , family reunions and what not, the "Grab Some Prop" style is alright! Actually, I kinda enjoy seeing those old toys I used to play with as a kid! It reminds me of my early years. Its quite refreshing actually! Well this is just me folks. This being distinctly defined, I would have to agree with you Glenn.

As they say, a little knowledge is a dangerouse thing! This is where someone gets hurt! The kid who made it to the mid part of the pool , gained confidence way over his ability, decides to go to the deep part. The other kid who was still getting used to the shallow part sees the other kid, he decides to join, seeing that IT SEEMED SAFE. Another kid just wadingin the water was told by some guy ...." hey go ahead kid ! jump in, everybody is doing it!!!"

The result ....? They drown, the other goit cramps the other ended up with a phobia or something.

The people watching (the audience) ? They left the resort, thinking...

the lifeguard was an idiot!
swimming is unsafe
the resort has no class to allow such things to happen

etcc.....

This is the same with Magic.

These are just my humble thoughts!


Rannie
"If you can't teach an old dog new tricks, trick the old dog to learn."

-Rannie Raymundo-
aka The Boss
aka The Manila Enforcer

www.rannieraymundo.com
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bishthemagish
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I have also suggested that my Mom - since she is on line - to join the Café. Perhaps she will and can add her thoughts to my thoughts.

The other thing is that I have said the above many times about the difference of having fun with magic and doing small shows and doing magic as a profession and the need to meet the demands of the business.

This is where the art of magic as a hobby is confused with the business of magic.

Just an opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Dannydoyle
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The 2 are intertwined and can not be sepporated.

The very SECOND you charge money, it is a profession. How you go about it from there is up to you.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
bishthemagish
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I agree with Rannie in the thought that some magicians start to charge a professional fee before they have a professional show. And sometimes in magic that is a problem.

I also have the opinion that magicians doing it as a living are sometimes not very nice people and act like jerks when performing a show. And there are some that act like a jerk 24/7. Some magicians are just crude people and they are successful performers. Perhaps they take a Howard Stern approach to the entertainment.

I am not saying that crude people are not good entertainers but I have found in the hypnosis market that there are many hypnotists that are good hypnotists. And can do a show and it is there profession. But they also hurt the business because they seem to be crude people. And do crude material for the audience.

I like doing grad nights with my hypnosis show. I do one in a little town about 40 miles north of Branson MO every year. The first time I did it was three years ago. The first year there was a problem because they had booked a crude hypnotist and he did a show that was based on blue jokes. He made fun of the subjects and his show would be rated R to rated x.

He was booked out of Las Vegas and took his Las Vegas show into a high school grad night.

I went in to do the show and because of the word of mouth that there was a hypnotist. And the guy was crude last year I had to calm both parents and students. I did an hour of close up magic before the show and made friends with the students. Then I did the hypnosis show and because they already liked me the show was easy. I had parents thanking me as they liked my clean, funny, situation comedy hypnosis show.

Another one of the things I used to do and may still start up again was to do fund raising in grade schools with a full evening magic show. This show fit into a van and I used one college student as an assistant. Several years ago my Mom came to town and because she was here she wanted to see my show. She had never seen my full evening magic show. So we took off to Valley Park MO to do this grade school. It was my second year doing this one and we sold out the gym.

I got there and unloaded and set the show. 20 minutes before show time my Assistant had not arrived yet. My Mom and I were back stage. I looked at her and said. We will give my assistant 10 more minutes and if she doesn't show up I will run you through the illusions in the show and you can do it instead of her.

You should of saw the look my Mom gave me.

5 minutes went by and my Assistant showed up and we did the show. The funny thing is had my assistant not shown up - My Mom would have done the show with me. That would have been a kick.

I enjoy using magic in the grade schools for fund raising and hypnosis in the high schools and colleges.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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tommy
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The best paid magicians are those that do the best magic. The best magic IS art!

The worst paid magicians are those that do the worst magic. The worst magic is NOT art.

Do you know who decides who gets what? The public! The public knows what art is even if you guy’s don’t.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 01:20, tommy wrote:
The best paid magicians are those that do the best magic. The best magic IS art!

The worst paid magicians are those that do the worst magic. The worst magic is NOT art.

I wish this were true tommy but often the best paid magicians are not the best performing magicians. I know - and have known a lot of great magicians that were very poor business men. And were great magicians but lived in a shoestring and were sort of down and out for most of their lives.

Magic is a business and even back in the olds days when there was more steady markets to work. There were a lot of great magicians that had a hard time in the money department.

Take a look at Dai Vernon and Charlie Miller. I would consider them to be top artists and top magicians. But they were up and down for most of their lives. They had success ups and also downs.

My Dads life was the same way. The same with Blackstone, Willard the wizard, we have season's where we make money and then we have seasons that don't. Feast or famine and it has nothing to do with the skill it has to do with how well a person does the business side.
Quote:
On 2006-04-25 01:20, tommy wrote:
Do you know who decides who gets what? The public! The public knows what art is even if you guy’s don’t.

This is partly true. I would say that the public knows entertainment.

Magic as an art can't be sold unless you fund it yourself or you have a client buy it. Preparation meets opportunity.

Often it takes YOU and a person that HAS the money in order for magic to be sold for cash as selling it for a service. So if I may expand on this. If the show does not meet the demands of the market and the demands of the business it is a HARD SELL.

Soon they will be out of work unless they gorilla market - I know a hypnotist that is crude and is a good hypnotist and his way of marketing is to never do the same client twice. That is he moves from one place to another and aggressively goes after new clients. His style is gorilla marketing and he doesn't care if they like his show. He does it then moves on. I don't think if he has ever worked for the same client again except in the comedy club market.

I like having clients that I can go back to so a user friendly customer client relationship is what I go after. (That is in the business of performing not the magicians sub culture as for magicians - I do not care what they think of me they are not really the audience I want to please).

Magic is an art that we market to and sell as a service the ENTERTAINMENT MARKET! And if the art does not meet the demands of the entertainment market it would be hard to sell it.

We have the sale when the service meets the NEEDS of the client.

Putting the clients needs over the artistic needs and ego of the artist is how many of us eak out a modest but enjoyable living.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
George Ledo
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Quote:
On 2006-04-23 22:11, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
This person would be tongue-lashed into mincemeat by Ayn Rand.

The position stated is far from realistic and comes close to validating a psychotic view of the world.

The artisan earns their living by SELLING their talents to those who commission works.

The very idea of an "artistic temper" is IHMO a myth. I grew up an with an arts background and have seen many efforts abandoned when client/patron feedback demands a revision to the work. What could have been is left on the drawing board in favor of what the client desires. It is THEIR work after all. GTFM. Hissy fits don't pay the rent.

I need to squeeze my two cents' worth in here... Smile

I've seen many many instances of "efforts abandoned when client/patron feedback demands a revision to the work. What could have been is left on the drawing board in favor of what the client desires," so I totally agree with this. However, there is a major distinction between art and design and their respective mentalities.

An artist will want to create a complete work that stands on its own. Every little detail has to be "just so" or the work will not fit into the artist's vision. Yes, these people will work, re-work, revise, and sweat over their work until they're happy with it, but they want their work to be their statement. These are the people who have an "artistic temper," and sometimes those tempers are awesome to behold. Many good artists are bad business people: they just don't see things that way, which is why they need managers and agents.

A designer, on the other hand, thinks in terms of solving a problem in a creative way. Compromises and revisions are a way of life here, even though the designer naturally wants to make his or her own statement too. These are the people who go back to the drawing board when the client requests a change. A good designer will argue with the client if he or she feels strongly enough about a point, but good design is really a collaboration between the client and the designer: a win-win situation. Good designers are good business people.

A good part of the problem happens when someone working as a designer is really just a frustrated artist and wants everything his or her way. The frustration may stem from the person just realizing he or she can't make a living as an artist and having to fall back on a "day job." Many architects fall into this category, and a lot of theatrical designers fall into it too. It's sad, but it happens all the time.

Another part of the problem occurs when the "designer" is really an illustrator or drafter, and just gives the client what the client wants regardless of whether it solves the problem or is good design. These are the people responsible for "bad design."

How this fits into magic? I think I need another coffee here, but I'd probably say the magician with an "artist" mentality works mostly for himself and the magician with a "designer" (or business) mentality works mostly for the customers.

Okay, let the rebuttals begin! I'm going for another coffee... Smile
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bishthemagish
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Thank you for posting this George Ledo it is really great and yet another way to look at things. I love it when magicians like you and Jonathan Townsend and others take the time post great stuff like this.

This is what makes the Café such a great place!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
karbonkid
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Wow. That was really a good read George.
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