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sportshooter
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 09:00, Vandy Grift wrote:
Believe me, to some folks, winning a measly four or five hundred bucks in a few hours is not a bad thing at all.


Not a bad thing at all! You don't even have to have all the moves i.e., stacking, culling, reverse the cut or bring in a cooler. In a game of 5 card draw all you have to be able to do is peek the bottom two & top card and deal bottoms & deuces as needed.
"Don't trouble 'bout no two hen's, Boss. Get yo' own hen'. De suckah, he'll get a han' all right, suah!"
card cheat
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You know something, Mr. Z has got a point. It can easily be reasoned that the higher the stakes, the more likely it is that you will be up against more knowledgeable, and vigilant gamblers.

Although I agree with this contention, based on theory and experience alike, I would like to interject another angle.

The same amount of money, or stake, has a value that is absolutely relevant to the financial status of the one who wagers it. The amount of money wagered is also not always representative of the seriousness of the game, or the focus on security.

If an oil tycoon, a multi-millionaire, sits down across from me in a game that boasts a minimum buy-in of $2500.00, I wouldn't really expect him to worry too much about this money. I am not saying that I expect him to fall asleep between hands, but I don't expect him to sit there sweating it out either. In the grand scheme of things, this is a trifle for this person.

By the same token, if a college kid sits down in a "big" game in which the buy-in is worth his entire bankroll, I would expect him to be a bit wearier of game security. Maybe he's a smart boy and burned your hands the whole time.

So, if the multi-millionaire is not worried about the petty cash on the table and, in fact, is more concerned with the 7K he has wagered on the Knicks game (which he IS watching between hands), are you going to brag about cheating him out of a measly couple of grand?

I wouldn't. I would definitely be pleased with myself, though!

Then again, I cheat for money; not for bragging rights.

It's true. You can run around town, trying your hand at each and every "high-stakes" game that you can weasel your way into. According to Mr. Z, successfully working these games is the "big time." Only then, can one rush back to The Magic Café, and "brag" about his score.

Alright, fine. But, one question: How long until you get caught?

If the players that you are attempting to cheat know more about cheating then, it only stands to reason that it will take you less time to get nailed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like money too. You know what I don't like? Broken bones, getting my bankroll taken (ironic as that sounds), and having my reputation absolutely trashed because I wanted to play David and Goliath for a night.

I know of a game that consists of a local group of doctors who ventured together to found a local cigar club. They have a poker game in the back every Tuesday night. Is the game fat? You better believe it. One good hit on that game could "pay my rent" for a while. Thing is, though, not one of these guys could spot a second deal if I turned the top card face up for them. Is "stealing" from these chumps anything to brag about?

Like I said, Mr. Z makes a valid point. Cheating the elderly out of their social security checks is one thing. Getting it on in a Vegas hotel game for tens of thousands is another. Then, you have everything in between.

It's the "in between" that I believe Vandy was getting at.

But, then again, it IS quite the drag to cheat vicariously through others who don't hit four digits every time they score. Ah, the perils of being a spectator....

Mr. Z,

We here, at the Café, are all well aware that you are Forte trained and quite proficient with a deck of cards (as well as one-liner, empty posts.) Do me a favor, K? Stop knocking everybody here, all of the time. Vandy made an excellent post and, within it, some excellent points. Leave well enough alone, man.

CC
Vandy Grift
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 10:39, card cheat wrote:
You Like I said, Mr. Z makes a valid point. Cheating the elderly out of their social security checks is one thing. Getting it on in a Vegas hotel game for tens of thousands is another. Then, you have everything in between.

It's the "in between" that I believe Vandy was getting at.

CC



Thanks CC. I think you understand what I was talking about. The fact is that there is money out there. People that don't know whats up, people who haven't the first clue that they could be had, betting much more money than they should be. Not thousands and thousands of dollars. Nothing like what you see in the movies. Just people with some disposible income that enjoy gambling and haven't even begun to consider what could happen to them. I only made the post because I was shocked at the looseness of this particular game. Really and truly shocked.
"Get a life dude." -some guy in a magic forum
bishthemagish
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Hey vandy I really liked the posts in this thread. Thank you for sharing this. In the world of card games there are big money games and small money games. I think the risk is the same in both. For a pick pocket if he dips into someone else’s pocket for a wallet. The risk is the same if the wallet has one dollar or a thousand dollar bill if they get caught.

Every time I have played cards in my little penny card games they (the other players) did not think that I could move in a card game. In fact I am sure that they thought I had no idea how to play the game.

I think that there are games where people play that are loose and games with strict protocol and guys that watch other players like a hawk. It all depends on where you choose to play and who you choose to sit in with. After reading Phantoms of the card table by Gazzo. I think Walter Scott chose the games, chose the location or the place, and chose the people.

And from my understanding he did not move in the game every night and in every game. I think he was like a smart magician and chose the moment and then moved when HE had the best advantage.

But the risk of getting caught I think (my opinion) is equal no matter where you are because getting caught can happen at any time they move.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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sportshooter
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 12:42, bishthemagish wrote:
In the world of card games there are big money games and small money games.


And this is all relative. For someone making $30k a year at their job, a game grossing $1000 is 2 weeks pay*. Now that IS a big game for them and they only put in a few hours work. But the flip side is that it is a small game for someone making $250k/year.


* But as Erdnase said, "Hazard at play carries sensations that once enjoyed are rarely forgotten. The winnings are known as "pretty money," and it is generally spent as freely as water".
"Don't trouble 'bout no two hen's, Boss. Get yo' own hen'. De suckah, he'll get a han' all right, suah!"
Slim Price
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Slim

When you worked in a gambling supply house making crooked dice what did think you were doing? An honest days work?

I have no defense for that. I made devices for players of all desciptions, cards, dice, tables and a few things so subtle you probably never heard of them.(think Dreadle) The place made about 1 million a year for all the equipment sold. While there were only three people who worked in "the back room" none of us were gamblers, crooked or otherwise. We took no pride in cheating or stealing. I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result...
Slim
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"I will never bitter be, as long as I can laugh at me!"



"The people who were dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music"
Mr. Z
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 13:50, O J wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-04-25 09:00, Vandy Grift wrote:


We can't all be heavy hitters like Mr Z. Taking down $100,000


The only pot he's probably taking down is the one against his babysitter. Smile


She's a cold witch but I busted her flush...
"...if you have to say you is, you ain't."--Jimmy Hoffa
tommy
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"I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result..."

Please do Slim.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
card cheat
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Quote:
On 2006-04-25 14:57, tommy wrote:
"I could tell you endless horror stories about those who did,and the families that suffered as a result..."

Please do Slim.


Oh NO!

Not the horror stories... anything but that!

Tommy,

Why would you want to hear about this sort of thing, anyhow? Sort of morbid, don't you think?

CC
sodman12
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He wants to know how dangerous hes living!
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Craig Krisulevicz
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C'mon now......what are you guys trying to prove?

Do you walk to work or carry a lunch bucket?



-$
Who is John Galt?
tommy
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Smile

I like old stories and getting both sides of the picture. Slim I am certain could tell some of the best as well as the worst.

As for taking advantage of old women. My gradmother was an old women and took no prisoners at the poker table. If an old women sits at my poker table I don't care if she has white stick, I will take her chips by hook or by crook. If I saw the same women in the street drop her purs I would pick it up and give it her back. Why? what's difference some might ask. Well old blind women shouldn't be playing poker unless they are my grandmother. Smile

Would I cheat my own grand mother at poker? I would have to be fast!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
silverking
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Ya' know Tommy, I've heard people try to express this thought in many different ways, and this post is by far the best I've heard!

A blind old lady on the street deserves all of our help, respect, and assistance.

A blind old lady at the poker table is either deserving of losing her chips, or can manipulate the deck by feel alone (a'la Richard Turner) and will take you before you have a chance to take her.

There's an entire undertone to the concept of people sitting down at a poker table and not being aware what's going on.
If the dealer is using any of the "workers" grips, other players are copping chips, marked cards, etc, etc, etc.
If you can't pick up on any of these things, then you're probably at the very least out of your league, and at the very most deserving of anything that's going to happen to you while sitting at the table, including losing all your chips.
halcon
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Haha! I have a friend, who's grandmother, while in a convelescent home, would subsidize her social security by cheating the other patrons in the home. my friend couldn't underdstand how an old lady on her income could give her grandkids the gifts she was giving them. it was later, after the other people started complaining to the staff of the home, about them always losing money, that the staff decided to prevent her from playing cards with anyone. no one ever knew she was cheating. they just thought she was good.

I about bust a gut, when I heard that one.

Halcon
Paul H
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Whenever the topic of ripping 'suckers' off at the card table appears, there is an interesting dynamic that comes into play. Two camps seem to emerge, the voice of ruthless ambitious card chicanery and the voice of conscience. The one is often gently or boldly preaching, the other defiant and contemptuous. Perhaps the way to resolve this moral dycotomy is to be clear that cheating at cards is stealing and is a criminal offence. Those who practice it are crooks. People who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves and sometimes plunge their families into hardship. This is simply true and there are no excuses. Now, lets get on with discussing Vandy's point about how important conditions are for the kind of cheating methods employed.

Best Regards,

Paul H
sodman12
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I think that if your going to study the art of cheating at any game you should be ok with using the methods you learn about. People don't usually learn things just for the heck of it they learn things so they can use them. In some cases for protection which is ok but there is no reason to learn how to preform these methods if all you will be doing is looking out for them.
it amazes me that some people here devote lage portions of their lives to learning the tricks of the trade but never ever intend to use them.
you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all the time but never all of the people all the time.
Silly Walter the Polar Bear
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This one time, in band camp....
card cheat
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Quote:
On 2006-04-26 15:39, Paul H wrote:
People who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves and sometimes plunge their families into hardship.


Paul,

Nice post but, if I may be so bold, I have only one thing to add to this remark....

The people who "hurt themselves" and "plunge their families into hardship" by losing money to a cheat are usually compulsive gamblers; this type is going to lose their money anyway, regardless of whether the game is fixed or not. Psychologically speaking, the compulsive gambler wants to lose.

I would never, ever hesitate for a split second to trim the compulsive gambler.

Smart bettors, on the other hand, most often have reserved for the purpose of gaming, a bankroll. This is to absorb the burden of misfortune so that the impact never hits too close to home.

I'd never hesitate to hit one of those guys either.

Your Favorite Bast*rd,
CC
Paul H
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Hi CC,

I do agree. This was precisely why I worded the phrase 'people who lose money to a cheat can hurt themselves'. It is the reckless compulsion to gamble at all costs that causes the most hardship. Vandy's experience is very useful as it reinforces the point that each game has its own particular characteristics, culture almost, and deserves reseach. My experience was very different. I played in a more 'stealy' competitive atmosphere where the name of the game was to win. This was not the liberal matey get together Vandy so vividly describes. Moving in this environment was truly fightening and the cheating that I did merely reduced my losses for a bit. The guys I was playing against were seasoned skillful players and eventually I could not afford to continue even though it was a unique if resource draining experience. And I certainly got to know what it feels like to be a 'producer'.

Regards,

Paul H
card cheat
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Quote:
On 2006-04-27 01:54, Paul H wrote:
And I certainly got to know what it feels like to be a 'producer'.


You walk away changed....

CC
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