Maybe we both have a little bit of misunderstanding since we're typing and not talking face to face. I'm not racist and your not racist and that's good for me. We're just talking as men here and you're definitely entitled to your opinion. Scorch nothing was stolen from me I just said an acknowledgement would have been nice.

If we misunderstood one another all we have to do is rectify it. Again they of whom I spoke of are my friends and they stole nothing from me, as a matter of fact they had way more stuff than I would ever consider purchasing and maybe this is why they forgot to mention it because so many people give them things. I wrote I was just thinking out loud. You know the Devil always throw something to an idle mind to make him think or do something wrong.

I believe that just like a salad wouldn't be a real salad if it just had lettuce but when you add all the different vegetables like tomatoes, onions, carrots the crotons etc. with some Ranch Dressing now that makes a salad; I guess that's why God made all nations of men from one man because he wanted to add a little color (different ethnic groups) to His salad (World). So on that note "Can We All Just Get Along?"

Peace My Brother

Your New Friend

Doc

Hey Doc, I just wanted to jump in here and say something that a lot of Café members already know. That Doc is the real deal. Of the old school of hard work and earning the moves.

Often when one from the old school doesn't get credit they will tell others about their ideas and where they came from. In magic there are people that take ideas. others use ideas and somehow forget to give credit of where they got the idea.

Good to have you back in the Café Doc and thanks for a great read.

Doc While we have never met, I have met Sal. One thing I can say about Sal is that he is a very giving person. If you had gone to him FIRST (meaning after you had seen the DVD) many of the problems that you have may have been taken care of. Instead you go on a public forum to call them (Steve and Sal) out.
I hate to break this to you but the burden of proof is on you, because you claim the moves and devices are yours. The posters that have come to back you up and the fact that you mentioned the footage of you with many of the greats makes what you say believable but you offer no proof. You want to B*#$% about people stealing your moves and publishing them, I understand where you’re coming from, its happened to me as well (and I REALLY have no "name" in this art). The point is YOU cried foul, YOU must supply the proof to the community that what you claim is true. Otherwise, and I hate to say this, its just another grasp by someone at getting their name in the books.
To be clear I am not saying you aren't being truthful and I most certainly am not calling you a liar, I'm neither a judge nor a jury. If you want things to change you need to bring the proof.

JTW

The visitors to this forum demand JUSTICE!

And another quality post by Silverking. I do not post often here but I read a lot including your posts...
Are you insinuating that if someone reads this thread and hasn't posted as prolifically as you, that they are not entitled to an opinion on the subject?
Doc brought the whole issue up. He wants the credit he has to provide the sources it’s really quite simple.
Many thanks for an insightful discussion,
"merely a visitor"

JTW

Woo hooooo!! This is getting good!

I am outraged.

Thank You for your kind words.

Doc ... the burden of proof is on you, because you claim the...devices are yours. YOU must supply the proof to the community that what you claim is true.

Why is the burden of proof on me? The burden of proof comes upon me when the individual deny that I didn't give them what I said I gave them. They did not deny anything as of yet and until then...Case Dismissed.

The point is YOU cried foul.

I didn't Cry Foul "I said that it would have been nice if they acknowledged the things that I gave them. What if they honestly forgot? If so you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. You know I believe that it's the Devil that's behind the people who instigate issues when there is none. To err is human so if they forgot are they not human? I said I was thinking out loud and now disbelieving readers want me to go up against my friends...for what because they most likely made an honest mistake? Friendship is more important to me.

If you want things to change you need to bring the proof.

So what you're telling me is this...if I bring proof or they admit it that they are going to take back all the Casino Protection Books and redo them over just to put that little known fact in it and Sal take back all of his DVD's and re-shoot just a particular segment just to satisfy me? I don't think so but if you like by all of Steve's books and Sal's DVD and sponser their stuff being redone and published and then all will be well but until then...I guess I'm gonna have to put an "H" on my chest and Handle It.

As far as that punch being mine...just ask Gazzo, Steve F., Sal P., Darwin O., Andrew W., Bob R., Damien N., Bill Kalush., Meir Yedid, Ricky Jay, Ricky Jay's Manager, Herb Z., Wesley J., Craig K., Jeff W., The Staff at Hank Lee's, The Staff at Louis Tannen's, The Kids at Maui Taco's, Doug E., Carl P., Gene Maze., Lou Daria, Rod the Hop, Allan A., Alan H., Mark Mitton, Gene Matsuura, Expert Magician, David Ben and my friend who taught me the Endless Loop.

All of these gentlemen have seen my punch and only Craig and Alan H. have seen me make one in front of their face teaching them.

Oh I forgot to say that I gave many of these here guys one of my punches too...I hope I don't have to prove that too. lol

Respectfully

Doc

Wow! I'm gone for a few and this happens.

I concur, with many on this thread who are backing Doc in this matter. Doc has no reason to lie, especially in a public forum. Not once, have I known Doc not to give credit to someone, in regards to something he uses. I visited with him and he was generous enough to show me some very esoteric things, ALWAYS, giving credit where credit was due. He didn't have to, as I would have not doubted if he had come up with them on his own. the point is, If he's so willing to give acknowledgment, why would he lie about his own creations?

Only craig, myself, and a few others, who have actually been fortunate enough to have gone to Docs house, can with certainty, tell you why this man is telling the truth.

I would go so far as to say, if he claims to be the originator of these items, the burden to prove he's is telling the truth is not on him. I suggest, everyone calling him out prove he isn't telling the truth.

it seems ludacris, that people would bash him without having proof that he isn't telling the truth... what proof do you have he isn't?

Halcon

I might be a little dim-witted, but I have reread the craps chapter and can't find a mention of a hold out except on 264, and using the sleeve on 263. As I said, maybe I missed what it is that got you worked up, but those two references are to stuff that you can't hardly claim is unique to what you do.

Can you point out what specifically has sparked this. I don't know nothing about Sal, but Steve is well known for being one of the most straight up guys around, so this whole thing just sounds nuts.

I'll say one thing, you sure know a lot of magicians.

Best
J.Corey

In his book, Forte does not acknowledge the makers of pictured items. I have not seen Sal's video. Does he acknowledge the maker of items shown, leaving you out?

Your two pronged dice holdout is quite unremarkable. Do you know many people that got down with it?

What is your punch, a bead with a needle in it?

YW Silverking

So now it isn't a big deal...ok cool

I was mislead by your posts on the first page which was the sole reason for my response.

You want them to acknowledge your contribution but you don't want to do anything other than plead your case on an open forum...perfect.
Good luck,
JTW

Mar, regardless of what it is, that's not the point. I am sure you have run across some great effects, only to find out it is a piece of tape on a card, or nylon from a stocking, again, not the point.

Halcon

I'm aware that Doc is some kind of hero of yours (atleast you give that impression) but some people just aren't star struck. I'm certainly not,especially after the replies I've had to simple questions with no opinionated remarks in them. Doc has detailed some very sticky situations in his tales of Cheating, I'm sure he doesn't need your protection on a message board.

Exactly. For a start, he should point out what the heck he's talking about in the Forte book. Give us a page number - then those of us who have the book can stop scratching their heads.

Put up or stop publishing statements on the internet that disrespect one of the most respected experts in the world.

There's no 'agenda' here except Doc's - or perhaps his 'students'.

John P. Corey

Can this guy Doc please tell us what the heck he is talking about? Don't explain the gaff (not that he hasn't already tipped it to every magician and magic shop staff list on the continental US already) but please give us a page number for whatever has got him worked up. Otherwise it's just gasbagging and defamation

J.Corey

Hey Doc, how YOU doin'? Wish I could get all these emotionally charged cardmen in a good old-fashioned poker game! My kinda play, don'tcha think?

Best, PSC

O.K. this is just my opinion.

Doc has contributed to this forum for some time. He has given us magi's something to work with. And now he comes under attack.

But think... what if he is right? what if he has not been acknowledged? Wouldn't you be p*****g off.

Doc. has been here posting and trying to help. He has nothing to gain from it. Obviously because he is not marketing anything. Not like others on this board that do nothing but tote how great thier latest creation is. And review how great there cronie's product's are.

I have been around long enough to know that Doc does not lie. I usually try to stay out of arguments like this one, but I feel like some of the replys are given just to try to put down Doc. I agree with silverking 100%: "If Doc says he invented a specific gaff, he invented it....end of story."