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magic4jc
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Texas, USA
143 Posts

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I was just thinking about something, and would like to hear what y'all think.

Let's say I take someone elses routine out of a book, and use about 1/2 of it, but "tweak" it to fit my needs. I then add a new ending completely to the routine. So now, my routine contains PART (aprox 1/2) of a published routine, with minor changes, and a brand new ending that is original to me.

Can I share this routine with other magicians, free of charge? Can I share it as MY routine? If I were to share it here at the Café, would that be legal? would it be ethical?

Please share your oppinions, I am willing to listen. Just, please don't slaughter me for posting in the wrong section.

Thanks,
Mike
Dennis Michael
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Southern, NJ
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I asked Chance Wolf the very same question, and his response was good. First he asks permisssion from the original owner then he trys not to keep more than 30% of the original material.

Take his funhouse. It's a standard Balloon box, with a new facelife in his wacky design look, a new way to break the balloons, and added some party poppers, with a completely original patter. Yes, I know its a ballon box and most likely in public domain.

Another answer is can someone identify the effect. If so then it's not changed enough.

Also some effects may have a name but their design is public domain, such as a matrix effect. If you do a matrix different than another, then it can be yours.

Doing a matrix with eye balls, would be different. Are these points reasonalble? well you'll soon find out because the magic community has lots of people watching, and many times they are wrong in their beliefs of ownership.

My personal guru on this would be Marty Martini. A man with a wide source of information and holds my utmost trust.
Dennis Michael
magic4jc
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Texas, USA
143 Posts

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Den,

Thank you for your response. I think I need to clarify my question.

I am not really asking about an effect. I am asking about the routine or patter.

I have been working on a routine for a VERY COMMON effect. I have taken about 1/2 of Silly Billy's published routine/patter for this common effect, changed it a little bit, trashed the other 1/2, and added a new ending with another VERY COMMON prop.

Neither Silly Billy, nor myself are the originator of either trick/effect. Just authors of a good patter/routine using the effects.

What I am asking is this:

Since I am using PART of Silly Billy's patter, Though changed a bit, and ended totally differently, can I call this MY routine? Can I share it publically? Can I say, "hey guys, check out MY routine for _________."?

Thanks, again, for your help,
Mike
Dennis Michael
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Lets say, you're choosing the Crystal tube, with the colors of the Traffic light. This is not priority material and has been around for a long time, however, his patter is his patter.

Lets take his coloring book routine. David starts out with the lines, then colored pictures then blank pages. This too is not new. Add in Sammy Smiths crayons, and your patter, you do have a different routine.

If you use any of Davids words, then he derserves credit for that part.
Adapted from David Kaye, coloring book routine... would be appropriate.

Just my thoughts
Dennis Michael
Bill Scarlett
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You can claim credit for the part that you created. If you start off the first half of the routine with Silly Billy's lines, I don't think you should publish or present that part as yours. Just note that the first half comes from Silly Billy and cite the book or lecture notes it comes from.
magic4jc
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Thank you both for your responsees. That is basically what I was thinking.

I appreciate your oppinions.

Mike
Cascade88
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Sam 104
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Just post your part of the routine. You just say start with silly billy's patter up untill the point when..........
"Once is magic Twice is education."
Marvello
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It's amazing how little I can say in
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I agree with Cascade88 - Point people to the material that they will need to reference, and then post your own material from that point. That way you will actually be doing David a favor, since he may sell one or two more books/DVDs/whatever as a result of your post, as well as sharing your own original ideas with the community.
Never criticize someone else until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Then, when you do criticize them, you will be a mile away from them and you will have their shoes.
magic4jc
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Yep,
I think that is the best. That is why I asked this question.

I think my routine is coming along pretty good. And in the event someone asks for a routine for this particular item, I wanted to be able to share. BUT, I did not want to cheat David Kaye out of ownership of his part. By giving it away, or claiming it to be mine.

I was really pondering this. Thank you all for the wonderful advise. I particularly like the wording that you used, Cascade.

Mike
JamesinLA
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Los Angeles
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I can talk about the aspect in terms of writing and the law. I'm a professional writer and the writers guild of american (my union) gives a lot of weight to the original writer of a rewritten piece of material. The person who rewrites a screenplay for example must change over 75% of it just to get a shared credit let along sole credit. Even if someone where to get a sole credit, the best it would read is a screenplay based on a screenplay by original writer. That's because it's the original structure that is so seminal to the work and also because the orginal creation is the hardest part. Reworking someone's already created idea is A LOT EASIER than creating something from scratch.

Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
The Bonnie Kids
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Sweden (Västerĺs)
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Jim,
I have this problem in my everydays life, not as magician. Maybe because I am magician, I can invent from scratch a lot of documents (completely from scratch). I see than that people uses my documents (and pictures and drawings) a little bit modified, but well recognizables. In practice I have been copied.

Problem is that I write those documents "under my salary" as I am employeed by a company. What can I claim? Is my phantasy owned by my company? Can a colleague of mine freely use my ideas?

Maybe I should have PMed you, but I have the feeling that this can interest several people, even if it's not really "MAGIC".
Thanks if you have time to answer or to give suggestions.

// Andrea Bonetti
The Bonnie Kids
JamesinLA
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Los Angeles
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I don't know anything about the specifics of your company policy and/or company contracts, however, in general, when you do a work for hire, the copyright of everything you create belongs to the company. A company would be foolish in the extreme if they didn't require this. When I write for myself, I own the copyright. When I write for someone else, they own the copyright. When I sell something I have written, the company that buys it is buying the copyright from me, and all subsquent versions of that material yet to be written.
Good luck,
Jim
Oh, my friend we're older but no wiser, for in our hearts the dreams are still the same...
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