You're welcome. Thanks for your encouragement.

- Donald

In my personal oppinion, ripping off someones illusion and selling it should not be done. But I believe something even worst happening in magic is people stealing magicians acts, characters, routines, patter, etc... If we magicians were to try and take action against anything I say this should be first!

DJ

DJ I am with ya on that one as well... I understand how it comes to be, as a young child we tend to emulate our magical hero's , not truly understanding we are stealing from them . but most tend to grow up and realize there wrongs, creating there own style, persona , or charecter..
the ones who don't grow up and correct the wrongs and continue to rip off . I personally don't support , I don't have the answers on how to stop this but I certainly would do what I could
John

I don't think all magicians are even aware they are buying "rip-offs". I've only been a member of the magic forum for a few months, and prior to that I guess I was an uneducated or ignorant magicican. If I saw a trick or illusion advertised somewhere (or on-line), I never questioned whether it was an original or a rip-off - didn't even know there was a difference!! You can't blame people for buying tricks, illusions, or effects when they have no idea who the inventor or builder is.

Jim

Jim,

You've hit the nail on the head. There are a number of effects out there being sold by people who did not originate them, but it is widely believed they did.

I do not know of any person who has the full genesis when it comes to all of the vast number of effects we use. However, if one was to look in the right places, one might find that a number of the originals being sold, are not original with that producer at all. The effect could well be 40 or 50 years old or older and brought back to life by the current producer. Or, the effect could have originated with an unknown creator and then brought to the market by another.

It has been said that some very big names in the current magic production field have done just that. Borrowed or reused another's idea. Sometimes they give credit and sometimes they do not.

Perhaps the inventor has long since passed and no one has laid claim to their idea. In such a case, it could well be a very negative thing to let the effect pass into oblivion and so the current producer is doing us all a favour.

My point is only that although many of us strive to do what is right, we may not have the knowledge to know if we are indeed doing it.

All the best,

Rob

What exactly is an "original" design. I see a lot of things that are credited to people, but the concepts have long been in print or in general use. Just because someone popularizes something doesn't make it theirs.

Obversely, we see lots of things that become popular are assumed to be public domain. Some, like Zig Zag, are already a runaway train that will never be stopped.

There are people who have made minor changes to an existing prop, then raise all kinds of Caine when people use "their" idea. However, if someone elects to follow suit and makes a minor change to "their" ideas, the aforementioned also makes waves. At what point is an effect "new" enough to be original?

Many people expect us to act "honorably" when they were not "honorable" about the true origins of something. Others are too lazy or poor (or both) to take legal protective measures. When this occurs, who is responsible? If Whammo didn't protect the Frisbee, am I a cad if I make a similar flying disk toy?

Others claim that legal protection is not readily available for the "gray area" of magic. Not being a lawyer, nor one who has ever tried to get legal protection, I am not one to comment on this aspect other than to raise the issue. If someone does not take measures to protect something, is it wrong for others to use it?

I don't claim to have all the answers to these questions, but I think they are real issues to consider. It's not as easy as "Am I buying a ripoff prop?"

What is legally wrong and morally wrong may be two separate things... If I see you doing a card trick, and I like it, and then go and work out my own method to perform the same effect, then, legally, I'm on pretty safe ground (unless your method is patented, and I happen to infringe on your patent's claims)- however, in the world of magic, it may well be frowned upon. If I see your performance, and copy all your patter and gestures, then, there's a chance that I am legally wrong as well - there can be copyright in a performance, for example.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "take measures"- copyright subsists, rather than is created. You don't need to register a copyright, or apply for one, for example- at least, in England (and I believe the US also, although I'm not overly familiar with the Copyright Act over there), as long as you satisfy the criteria for copyright protection, then you are covered automatically. The issue is "simply" to work out what is and is not covered. If I buy your egg bag and routine, and then photocopy the instructions, that's probably a breach of your copyright. However, if I make loads of your egg bag, and sell them on, it's probably not... To be protected, the item has to be one of the classes of work (under English law, literary, dramatic, musical or artistic) and it's at least arguable that an illusion in itself is not a work- you might be able to protect an image of a dragon on the front of your Vanishing Dragon illusion, but perhaps not the illusion itself- you could argue that an illusion's method is an idea, and that ideas are not copyrightable.


Just my take on things, anyway- certainly not legal advice!

I have purchased magic from different places and maybe have something that is a ripoff, I don't know. I think what it boils down to is not just buying the rip offs but the magicians that do buy them don't want to spend the time really doing the research to see if it is a ripoff or not. I think as a magic community we have gotten lazy about buying any type of magic. I would love to have a tip over trunk or a aga levi but I can not afford them from places like Owen's or Mendoza or any of the real legitimate builders out there. If I want one of those items then I am going to have to build it myself or save up the money, as has been stated in here so often. Are ripoffs goin gto ever go away? No, not for the entire world. As has been said here our laws stop at the borders, unfortunatly. There again if we stop buying them then it will cut down on th ebuilding of them. We can at least do something here in the USA and just stop buying them period! We can tell the whole magic community about the ripoffs here in this country and at leats try and make a difference here. Again will they ever go away, No! Now what about the people here that build their own props and then resell them. Is this a ripoff also?? Something to think about.

Thanks
Steven

Right ... but savvy and sucker are two different things, as well. I'd rather do what I think is right rather than what a bunch of Magic Castle groupies say I should do.

I agree with you here, and think that it may actually be the same point. Whilst a certain activity may be legally right, you might feel uncomfortable with it morally. The more problematic area (in terms of infringments) is when something is legally wrong, but that you feel that it is either a.) morally acceptable, or b.), more strongly, morally right.

At the end of the day, using your example if you don't mind, regardless of whether the Magic Castle is legally right or wrong, if you feel morally uncomfortable with it, then, you're probably doing the right thing by yourself by not borrowing the books etc- exactly as you say.