I think that the definition of self-working should be expanded. Some tricks utilize moves or "sleights" that are simple enough for virtually anyone to master. These tricks should also be included. I think tricks utilizing the following sleights/moves are fair game in this section:
Glide
Double Lift/turnover
Elmsley Count
False Shuffle
False Count
Ascanio Spread
Control a card to top or bottom
Holding a break
What do you think? What other sleights should be included?

I think no. The tricks are no longer self working if any sleights are involved.

I'm with Jaz. What you listed might make a good list for "basic" sleights, but they don't belong here.

Double lifts? Controls? Elmsley count and false shuffles? basic techniques? I'm sorry, but to do them well, you need to put some hours on them.

AND THE ASCANIO SPREAD!!! As Spaniard I feel ofended!!! The Ascanio spread is a really difficult technique, at least done correctly, have you tried leaving the doubles on the table?

Marc, I think you proved my point even more that these are not "self working" sleights.

BTW, I don't necessarily equate "basic" with "easy to do."

I'm with Jaz too! Neither are the sleights listed "self working" nor could any effect that employs them be described as truly "self working".

I agree Dave.

I still belive that are sleights that should be included as self-working. But all the sleights that tgplano listed here are not self-working at all. But I don't agree with "no secret actions". There are sleights or secret actions that don't need any ability.

And I didn't get the difference between "basic" and "easy" I do know and I agree with you, they are basic sleights.

Ahh!!! Finally got some activity in this forum. I thought it had died once it was split apart.

If not sleights some good tricks require a move or action or something to make it work other than pure mathmatics etc. Those should be included.

Moves, yes. Sleights, no. Turn the deck over behind your back, under the table, whatever is perfectly fine. A top cover under the spread side steal with a Fizbin subtlety is not.

Now that we've repeatedly defined what "Self Working" is, what next???

Surely if you do a secret move then the trick is not 'self working' as it no longer does it on its own.

I have a trick 'cube on a string' that needs a special tap to make it magical. That tap needs to be done without the spec noticing. This requires some misdirection. I know it's not a card trick, but I believe the analogy holds. Anyone can do the trick, but without the skill everyone sees how it's done. This is not a self working trick.

When you add slights of any sort it stops being self working.

I agree, for the most part. Read the other threads about "when is a sleight not a sleight." Natural moves that don't require any particular skill on the performer's part don't really qualify as "sleights." Misdirection is a different subject entirely.

While moves like the 'glide' are basic to card magic, they are in no way 'self-working'. With the nerve damage I have to my third and little fingers, there is no way I can do a glide, so all tricks that use it are 'out' for me.

That being said, shouldn't we just about be done discussing what 'self-working' means, and get down to discussing some actual tricks?

I agree with Dave here. Moves can be included such as using the bottom card as a pointer to other cards and then returning it to the top rather than the bottom of the pack. I don't consider this a slieght as it relies on pure misdirection rather than concealment. But moves like the glide, DLs etc. rely on the spectator not being able to see what you are doing, moves rely on the spectator just plain not realising what you have done openly.

Moyle

I think a possible working definition would be if you can do the trick well, fifteen minutes after reading the explaination it is pretty much, self working. The work then is simply put into the presentation.

Peter

Does it not seem to anyone but me that part of what makes a "sleight," strictly speaking, is UTILITY? That is, there are some secret moves that are useful in many, many tricks -- these are properly "sleights," and would include the DL, false shuffles, false counts, etc. They do not all by themselves constitute a trick or effect, but are an aid to performing indefinitely many tricks. There may be others that are used very idiosyncratically, to achieve just one trick, and these are less properly called "sleights," and tricks involving them are less likely to be considered "sleight of hand" and more likely to be considered "self-working."

Your definition hinges on who "you" refers to. If a rank beginner and a working pro both read the same description, do you think their results after 15 mins practice would be the same? I think "self-working=no sleights" is a much more objective definition.

Self working that I actually use:

Mark Wilsons FANTASTIC FIVE

no slights - You only need to be able to spread a deck on a table - which I do not consider a slight

Yeah... this is way off. Those moves listed are FAR from self-working.

Sleights are sleights.
Self working --- can kid should be able to do.