Hey guys : In another thread Halcon mentions cheats who have never been caught because they are "so good." In the magazines (and on the Net) some very well known names have expressed strong opinions on this topic (usually that all cheaters get caught). I think it may have been Tony Giorgio who said that anyone who claims to have made a living cheating without getting caught is a liar.

I'm curious to know what you guys think and anyone with experience who weighs in on this issue would be appreciated.

I'll state my opinion right off the bat: I believe that it is possible to make a living cheating without ever being caught and I believe that it is being done; however, I must qualify that statement by adding that I have no real experience or knowledge of such a scenario to support my belief ... it just seems to me that an argument to the contrary is naive.
Whether you agree or not, I'd like to hear it ... as well as your reasons.
Dowser

This is a question the answer to which can only be given from your experience.

Firstly do you know anyone who has "made a living" from cheating at cards for a long period of time?

I know only one, who did just that, for maybe five years. He did not get caught.

PS by "cheating" I mean classical cheating.

Supposedly that's an old crossroader adage, "If you've never been arrrested then you've never cheated." I'd say that's overwhelmingly true.

There's always exceptions, but it's a gray area. I know of folks who've been at this game for 30+ years who've never been nailed, yet they get pulled up for other things, some gambling-related, some not.

If you're whacking em for substantial money over an extended period of time it's pretty likely you're gonna get backed off or back-roomed. That may not mean jail-time but it may be enough to keep you from coming back, especially if you're known.

I know many guys who have cheated at cards and never been caught but they have not made a living from cheating at cards. There is a great big difference between someone who has cheated and someone that cheated for a living.

I don't really consider being " backroomed " or "backed off " as being caught since most commonly those situations arise not for cheating but for skilled play , or play that is in a gray area or where successful prosecution would be very unlikely. If you were truly CAUGHT,then I suspect the response would be more than "please leave" . Of course when you talk about being backroomed etc. It's assumed you are talking about cheating in a casino . My question refers to any kind of cheat at play ...private games ,casino , or what have you .
I appreciate your response Tommy and Mr. Z.
I also agree with Tommy that the difference between "cheating" and cheating for a living is great . I have heard about organized cheat teams that factor "getting caught" into their business plans and bail is just a rare but necessary business expense .
I wonder if this is true ?
I see Tommy's point about the answer to my original question coming from your own experience but I think there are many on this forum who's educated opinion (whether they are CHEATS or not ) might be interesting to hear . After all , magicians have a unique education in deception and are (to some degree) themselves concerned with not "getting caught " .
There are also members who have unabashedly stated that they are cheats , I'm hoping at least one of them will weigh in on this question.
Dowser

Doc John said "I only got nailed twice in all the years in Hawaii. Beat that!!"

Now, I don't think that answers your question Dowser. But Doc John is the only person I've really known that made a living cheating. And he got cracked a few times.

Well what do you call getting caught!
someone saying what are you doing, or is it you having to run being forced to leave.
I would say it would be close to impossible (nothings immposible) not to have anyone suspect you of cheating or ask you to shuffle a differnt way.

I guess I will call "getting caught" the time when someone not involved in the play has clear (with out a doubt) knowledge that you are cheating and calls you on it in such a manner as to leave you with no option of talking your way out of it .
Dowser

I also think it depends on the type of advantage play favoured by the card cheat. If the main modus operandi is cheating at cards via sleight of hand, then the chances of being caught are very high over time. If the cheater is using other methods such as collusion play, modern underground gaffs the secrets of which are well guarded, or some kind of memory system then the risks of being caught are considerably less. Hope this helps,

Regards,

Paul H

Well then I would have to say the more likely you are to get caught is equal to how brave you are

The formula should be changed to:

Post on the Gambling Section of the Café' as a self proclaimed expert = never cheated.

Good idea since you know everyone on here personaly

I considered using this formula , but I decide against it... as I wanted to leave some room for debate.
Dowser