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jacob boehme New user 96 Posts |
Hello everybody and thank you to those of you who replied with wise advice regarding my performance a couple of weeks ago in front of an audience of mixed faith - keeping some of the tips offered in mind certainly helped and I think the performance went well even if I do say so myself
Anyway, re-reading recently a book which I am sure many of you know, the 'Compendium Maleficarum' by Guazzo, first published in 1608, some serious doubts have arisen in my mind about gospel magic in general. This worries me greatly because I have spent the last 6 and a half years of my life performing gospel magic on average two or three times a week. For those of you unfamiliar with the book, 'Compendium Maleficarum' is a compilation of tales of witchcraft and prestidigitation, in some ways similar to Scot's 'Discoverie of Witchcraft'. As I was reading through these tales of pacts with the devil etc., it came to mind that it is quite possible that gospel magic is not only unsanctioned by the Lord, but could even possibly be evil. Let me elaborate; true magic, that is to say, miracles, can only be performed by the Lord or one of his followers in a very special state - and I don't think any one of us here would like to lay claim to miraculous powers, even though, as I am first to admit, everyday life can be full of little miracles which remind us of His power. False magic, as Guazzo puts it (i.e. sleight-of-hand etc), if laying claim to such miraculous powers, is obviously corrupt and evil. If we try to impress with our magic tricks in order to evangelize, then we are no better than the Egyptian hieromancers - sinners all. Why then do we perform these tricks? Simple, you say, to illustrate Gospel truths. But now my fear is that by even giving the illusion of having magical powers, we are, perhaps even unintentionally, misleading others. Bearing in mind the recent thread on witnessing immediately after a trick, I understand that few of us would use gospel magic directly to convert a sinner. However, the fact is, via magic, albeit possibly for entertainment only, we are lying whilst spreading God's word. We are no better than the televangelists who raise millions whilst whoring and behaving intemperately off-screen. I am now worried that my conviction that gospel magic is a good thing has been shattered. How can we lie, use deceptive techniques, misdirection, cunning pyschological tricks, in our effort to propagate the Truth. Surely it is a contradiction in terms? I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this vexing topic.... |
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BroDavid Inner circle America’s North Coast, Ohio 3176 Posts |
Jacob,
I do not know how you present your version of Gospel magic. But I see several areas where you express concern, that I suggest should not be issues for Bible believing Christian magicians. But before I discuss why, I would just say that I do not understand why you, or anyone claiming perfomance of Gospel magic finds the need to read, and to reread various witchcraft and occult materials. I certainly would be concerned about those issues. But to the other issues; We certainly agree that God is the ONLY one who does miracles. And for those I know who perform Gospel magic, all of them make it exceedingly clear that they are performing tricks and illusions, NOT "magic". None that I know, ever lays claim to miraculous powers. So this is not an issue. Further, I do not know any Christian, magician or not, who converts anyone. That is the sole responsibility of God through the Holy Spirit. So that isn't an issue. I do not, and know many others personally who agree that there is no need to lie as you present magical effects. You say we use "deceptive techniques" as if that is bad. It is not. To deceive for the wrong motive would be bad. To tell someone that you will fool them, and then to fool them, with a motive of illustrating a point, or entertaining, is hardly a damaging deception. Misdirections falls into that same category. And cunning psychological tricks? Come on now. Are you serious? But this too goes to means and motive. So this isn't an issue. You are raising a variety of issues, which - if you are operating on them as you have outlined is your fears, then certainly these should be issues of concern for you. But these are not issues for many of us, as we do not present/pursue/pretend as you have attempted to assume that we all do. I am also unconfortable with your attack on televangelists and your accusations towards their behaviors. Do you know all of them to behave that way? I would think not. SO I ask, why does attacking them make your point on what we should or should not do, any stronger or more valid? I would again say, that if you do "Gospel" magic as you have described, amidst your reading and reading of witchcraft, you certainly may want to reexamine your approach and your mission. Several threads - I believe that there were a couple in which you may have previously participated - have been locked because they got too, away from Magic. This topic could end up that way too, if it doesn't move more towards magic, but frankly I don't see how that will happen. BroDavid
If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything.
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Illusions4Life Regular user Indiana 128 Posts |
Amen!! Brother David, I was thinking the very same thing that you have written. I personally have never and will never study a book on the occult. Also I do make it perfectly clear that I will be fooling my audience, fooling them with "sleight of hand and concealed apparatus".
My only purpose is to plant the seed of the Gospel and allow God to make it grow. God has given me a gift and I will use it to glorify Him!! Just my thoughts Jim |
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Kevin Ridgeway V.I.P. Indianapolis, IN & Phoenix, AZ 1832 Posts |
Quote:
I am now worried that my conviction that gospel magic is a good thing has been shattered. How can we lie, use deceptive techniques, misdirection, cunning pyschological tricks, in our effort to propagate the Truth. Surely it is a contradiction in terms? Jacob, Have you ever seen a Passion Play or an Easter portrayal of Christ or maybe even The Jesus Film? Those people are actors, no one believes that the person playing Jesus or Mary is REALLY them. I think that we need to realize that we are just actors. Have you ever played or watched sports... In football, a play action pass is where the quaterback wants the defense to believe the running back has the ball (even fools the camera guy a lot of times), yet he still has the ball and will probably throw a pass downfield. Do you believe it is wrong for him to use deceptive techniques, misdirection, to be cunning? As BroDavid has put it... Let's make sure we get our WORD from the Bible, not from some occultic book. Let's make sure we take what we do read in the Bible in context. Even God himself used misdirection in the events with Gideon. Many of us in here could just cut and paste essays from Andre Kole or Toby Travis. But, you must do for yourself what your heart tells you, just make sure you have the right information first and pray about it. Kevin
Living Illusions
Ridgeway & Johnson Entertainment Inc Kevin Ridgeway & Kristen Johnson aka Lady Houdini The World's Premier Female Escape Artist www.LadyHoudini.com www.livingillusions.com |
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AndyChil New user UK 35 Posts |
You just have to make it clear that you are not really doing magic.
I saw a show by John Archer, a Christian comedy magician in England, a few months ago. I still remember his best line, which I'm sure I will nick if I ever get up to performance standard. He did a mentalist trick, where he asked 3 people to draw a picture each while he was thoroughly blindfolded, then described the pictures they had drawn. Before he began the trick he said; "I want you to know that I'm not psychic or anything like that. What you are seeing is PURE TALENT!" Andrew |
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Payne Inner circle Seattle 4571 Posts |
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On 2002-12-07 08:46, Illusions4Life wrote: 'Compendium Maleficarum' is not an occult book, It is a book of one man's (a horribly zealous and misguided man) interpretation of the occult. It was the compendium and guide used by witch hunters over two centuries and is responsible for the deaths of scores of thousands of innocent people. I really wouldn't use this manuscript as a guide to whether or not you should be using magic to illustrate the gospels. The man basically made up everything in the book to justify his persecuting those who's beliefs offend his sensibilites. You must follow your own beliefs in this matter and not be swayed by the ravings of a centuries old lunatic.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
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DonB! Regular user Minnesota 170 Posts |
Sadly, just as it was brought up not to lump all televangelists together, or for that matter, don't lump all magicians together in one group/category, it really is a sad state of affairs when non-Christians lump all Christians together into a group that includes the mislead "witch-hunters" of the past, and then accuse all Christians of believing in a faith that allows these types of atrocities to occur.
As Christians, this is why it is so important to not simply "tell about our faith", but LIVE IT ON A DAILY BASIS. Only then, by example, and by living a life of sincerity and integrity, can the rest of the world see and understand what Christ was all about. He came to save the world, not to condem it. Oh what a wonderful God we serve, but what a tangled world we live in. Don Bursell DonB! Entertainment P.S. I make my entire living performing my variety entertainment programs for the sake of outreach and evangelism events. I love it, and would never trade it for anything else, no matter the pay or benefits. |
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Vaclav New user Now Seattle. Before? Who knows. 68 Posts |
Jacob.
Yesterday, I did a show for this company Christmas party. And after the show when the people were coming up to me and saying how much they enjoyed it, I felt very good about being able to put a smile on their faces and make them feel good and relaxed. Little did I know, what a horrible thing I did. I thought, that I was entertaining and then to my horror, I found, I was evil. That by producing doves and rabbits or changing a cane into a scarf, I made a pact with the satan himself. And I was not alone too. They also have had this guy who was hiding his real face behind a big beard pretending to be Santa Claus. And he was being followed by others pretending to be his helpers. Then I came home turned on the TV and what did I see? Hundreds of others pretending to be someone else. They even did a commercial for a Spiderman movie. And that is really disturbing. A man turning into the spider. Or what about Batman? Bats, spiders, isn't that all indication of evil. So I say. Enough. Let's bring back the holy inquisition and lock up all the magicians and actors. I myself will start by sending a strong letter to the local theatres not to produce Peter Pan this season for he is flying and if that is not heresy I do not know what is. The same goes for Copperfield. And then I will go and try to find out if there is still salvation for me (since I have been conjuring for some years now) and if there is not, I think, the only thing I want for Christmas is some firewood and a stake. (Or is it a steak) Or, on the other hand maybe not. Maybe I still believe, that if I do not claim what I do on stage is real and I have divine powers I'm fine. And, if I can bring people together and make them happy and relax them, then I'm doing the right thing. No matter what the 16th century bestseller says. Happy Holydays and peace on earth to ya all. |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
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On 2002-12-07 17:45, DonB! wrote: Perhaps I am misreading you, but there is no way that Payne's quote can be construed as lumping all Christians together. He was clearly referring to only one individual, and the strong implication seems have been that this individual's beliefs were a corruption of the truth. --Christopher Carter |
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DonB! Regular user Minnesota 170 Posts |
No, I was not inferring at all that Payne was doing so. As a matter of fact, I believe Jacob's original posting was a very sincere search for the truth. I also think that all of the repsonses to his inquiry are great.
All I was trying to state was the fact that he mentioned the Witch Hunt trials. It is those trials that have brought much tension, and even shame, to Christianity. Many unbelievers lump all Christians together with those wacks that were responsible for the Witch hunts. They group us together with the dishonest televangelists (not all are dishonest, I know), and say things like "Hitler did what he did under the name of Christianity. Why would ANYONE want to be a part of that faith?!?" I was simply stating that Christians should not all be lumped together in one category, mixing the bad and the good. The witch trials happened because over zealous "hunters" could not explain what they saw, and used Christianity as their excuse to hunt down and kill many innocent people. Some greedy televangelists use the platform of television to prey on innocent, but gullible people. Hitler was a deranged man. Period. If he would have said he did it all in the name of Buddha, would I think less of Buddhists? Absolutely not. Hitler was simply a misguided ruthless power-hungry killer that felt the need to show his authority over helpless victims. Now that I think of it, this whole posting should be somewhere else, probably on a Christian website. As I stated above, I love that we can all talk openly about how we have used magic/illusion to bring unbelievers to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Last year, through the programs of my ministry, approximately 300 people made life-changing decisions to follow Christ. Was it because of my great skill? No. It was because God has chosen to use me in a way that brings glory to him, and allows me to use the skills He has given me to do something that I absolutely love to do: perform and see people laugh. Stepping off my soapbox.... DonB! |
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
DonB,
Then I did misread you. I'm glad I was mistaken, and I apologize for my misunderstanding. --Christopher Carter |
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Jon Gallagher Veteran user Elmwood, Illinois 395 Posts |
I forget who said it, but someone did: No matter how thin I make my pancakes, they still always have two sides.
There will always be those who think that magic has no place in church. I am not one of them. Before Christmas, I sent a mailing to area churches and their ministers. I got one call in particular that almost scared me. The minister started telling me how evil I was to try to replace the Bible with Satanic rituals. He went on and on about how I was going to burn in Hell for doing magic, and I was polite enough to listen... for a while. Finally I asked him if he read the Bible. He said he did. I asked if there was a guy in his Bible named Jesus. He seemed shocked that I should ask such a stupid question. I told him that Jesus made his teachings easier to understand by using stories. Parables as they're called. I said, "Now I'm not a biblical scholar by any means, so I don't know if all those stories were true or not, or if he was just using them to illustrate a point." But the point of the matter is, Jesus tried to teach by making things as simple as possible. I try to make the Bible simple to understand by using entertainment. I'm no different from a singer who uses their beautiful voice to make a joyful noise unto the Lord. There are plenty of people who use their voice for purposes of tearing down God's Kingdom. Does that mean that because one person used their voice for ill that we should never listen to another Gospel singer? I finished telling the minister who called that I'm just a normal man, using the talents that God gave me for learning to relate my own witness to the Lord through my hobby of magic. I ended by asking him to look up that passage about "not judging people." I just hope that God doesn't make him my next door neighbor when we both get to Heaven. |
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
jongallagher,
If you get another call from this gentleman, or have cause to speak again, you might remind him that the three "wise men" as they were called, were actualy Three Magi. I believe they were performing an effect called "take the long way home" under Angelic advisement, to carefully decieve Herod, so the baby Jesus could be moved to a safer place, and escape certain death. Does God use magicians? Yes. I would encourage him to read this himself.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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Bfrancabandera New user 50 Posts |
Good gospel magic will help your Biblical message be remembered. As someone has said before it is not that different than Jesus using parables to make his message memorable. Parables were not true stories they were made up on the spot so Jesus could make a point. Was Jesus lying by telling stories that were not true. NO. Was he deceiving his audience because he did not preface his parables with "Now this is not a true story but..." No. Jesus used parables in the same way as a Gospel magician can use magic, for the glory of God.
Just my 2 cents. God Bless |
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jkvand Special user Johnstown, PA 658 Posts |
"I am now worried that my conviction that gospel magic is a good thing has been shattered. How can we lie, use deceptive techniques, misdirection, cunning pyschological tricks, in our effort to propagate the Truth. Surely it is a contradiction in terms?
I would very much appreciate your thoughts on this vexing topic.... " I just wanted to add my two cents in as a word of encouragement to let you know you are not alone in wrestling with this. I myself stopped doing magic for a few years because I wasn't sure about it all, and would rather stop doing it altogether than risk my relationship with God by continuing it. I think many, many Christian magicians have struggled with the issue, perhaps left magic for awhile, and then later returned to it. That is what I did, because I was able to see the value of it and look at it much like a visual parable. So, it's okay to wrestle with it, you're not alone, and I hope you resolve the issue with a clear conscience and continue to use your talents for God's glory. |
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rkrahlmann Regular user 168 Posts |
My two cents...
If you're concerned about it being thought of as "real magic", simple tell the audience that it isn't. Say you perform illusions, that obey the physical laws of the universe, but that fool the eye and expectations for entertainment and uplift. Just as everyone knows moving pictures don't really move, people know you're not performing real magic. What's more, the one Guy who counts, knows you're not doing real magic, if you catch my drift. The first magician I knew as a child was a guy my age who was, and is, a born again Pentacostal. He never had a conflict, and neither did his family and congregation. There were bigger disagreements over whether or not it was all right to drink coffee... |
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
Yes, it is very restrictive. It is far more difficult for the woman to follow the beliefs as they give up more than the men.
Gospel magic is however, permissable in the Pentacostal and Apostolic churches as a whole but not in some individual churches depending on leadership. Almost all leadership endorses Gospel Clowning. Coffee is Ok in moderation.
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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mentalism101 Regular user NYC 105 Posts |
Rkrahlmann seems to have a very balanced view on this.
The bottom line, I suppose, is does this hinder God's purpose in any way? If not then your conscience should be clear... |
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impossible man Elite user 403 Posts |
I think it is good for Christian magicians to know about the occult. I know people who claim certain tricks I see on TV could only be performed by the Devil. When you can educate Christians on what they really have to worry about, and point out how many psychics on TV are really using tricks; you help them see the truth. But that requires a thorough knowledge of magic, and very little knowledge of witchcraft. There are a lot of fakers out there, using gimmicks from the heydey of Kellar and Houdini. In fact, a great Christian magic show could be themed to reproduce "miracles" performed by psychics, with a disclaimer right up front that it's all an act. Hey... maybe I'LL do that presentation.
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Angus New user 50 Posts |
If I fool someone's physical senses by moving an object in my hands faster than the human eye can see it, does that make me evil? I don't think so. God uses many, many things (including those unsaved) to bring people to Him. If I use my talents to lure people into true witchcraft; then yea, I'm in trouble. But I don't see how doing it to edify God could be considered evil.
That's the thing about being a Christian.. you live on faith. I myself have never "seen" God, yet I know he exists. People tend to react negatively to things they don't understand, or can't figure out. I grew up in a religion that was this way. It wasn't until I stopped practicing religion, and studying and thinking for myself; that I realized there is no one person on this earth that knows everything there is to know about the Bible, and what it means. Some still believe if a woman cuts her hair, or a man grows his beard long, they are sinners destined for hell. Every person has their own convictions from God. I personally do not think the Bible says that drinking alcohol is wrong, yet I don't do it; because I don't know who may be around me that may stumble back into alcoholism, bacause they think it's ok-because I did it. I'm rambling a bit here, but it's all to say if you have a personal conviction that says the way you are presenting yourself in your routine is wrong; then by all means listen to it. But I would say to think carefully about where that conviction came from. There is only one true word of God, but many interpretations of it. Some really good, some really bad. |
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