Guys lets define what kind of count anyone is looking to learn.

Arnold Snyder is definatly a great source! Man he is the man in my eyes.

BUT you may want an unbalanced count, a count that keeps a side count of aces, maybe Reveres Advanced Point Count system, (only if you have a LOT of asprin!)

Beat the Dealer started it all. For a historical perspective I would really recomend it.

There is also a lot to be siad for simplicity. (for me anyhow) The less to keep track of the less you have to worry about messing up. Accuracy is at least as important as expected return.

My serious recomendation for beginners is 2 things. First Sklansky Talks Blackjack. David takes you through every hand possible, what to do, why you do it and what effect the count has on that hand. It is basic, but teaches quite well and is written to be entertaining.

Second is Getting the Best Of It. A book that will explain "expected value" and such terms which are quite important to be successfull at any form of gamblinig. Mason Malmuth and David Sklansky take you through all the casino games in which you can possibly have an advantage, no matter how small, over the house. They talk about "getting into the long run" and some great things.

Once you digest the information in those books, other books will suggest themselvs.

Good fortune everyone.

Vandy, sorry bout the elephant thing. OOPS my bad.

Mr. Tweed,
Kids gambling these days is very believable, I (being 14, 15 tomorrow) play Hold 'em and Blackjack. I even have my own blackjack table (Built it with my dad!). I play Hold 'em with my cousins and blackjack with my uncle and dad, I thought my Dad to play. I don't ussaly play for money just for chips butr I have layed for money with my cousin a few times.

Times are changing, soon they'll have craps games at Kindergardens!

The greatest gambler I ever knew was killing them at 13, and might have been even younger than that I'm not sure. I am not talking about penny ante stuff either. That was in the 60s. I myself have played poker since I was a kid but the guy I am talking of was a pro at 13. I recall him winning a substantial amount at the track and when he went to collect the bookie just said "Get lost kid I ain't paying ya" and the kid just had to walk away. At any particular time in the UK you can count on one hand the number of true pro gamblers there are here and he has always been one of them. I am not sure if he still alive.
I said to a pro piano player once “I would love to play a piano like that. How long did take you to learn?” He said. “You need to start when your five years old.”

Tommy,
What games was the 13 year so good at? Did he cheat?

In relation to cards he could cheat and did at any game but made fortunes from playing Bridge, cheating film stars and the like that’s as he got a little older. However he said you are limited to how much money you can win at cards. At the time, that was very true and maybe still true today even with the huge comps they have now.
His thing was horse racing however, where there is no limit to the amount you can win. Horse racing is one of the most crooked games in the world. I don't think he even played cards past the age of 20. He was one them guys that everyone loved, charming, and could get into any circle; Owners, Trainers, Jockeys etc and knew more than all of them and knew how to use the info he got. A very cleaver kid, and moreover fearless with money. The only character I can think of like him was that guy in "Casino" who DeNiro played, what's his name, Frank Rosenthal I think. Every one loved him also because he made everybody money. We used to call him God. He had a small army of guys putting his bets on all over country, because he scared the bookies to death and he could not get big amounts on himself. We didn't know what would win unless he told us, just putting the money on told use nothing because most of it was just to manipulate the odds, which here, are not like in the USA, it’s bookmakers here who make the odds, not the tote. Anyway he would send one every now and them that was going to win. When he phoned the guy’s would ask, "Has God sent us anything today."
Never underestimate a kid is my advice anyway. Look at Jeff - just four years back he was 13 - it does not take long to learn how to manipulate cards and kids are quick learners. It’s the old guys like me who find it hard to learn new stuff. Little kids here in London are brilliant pickpockets for example, some of them look younger than 10 to me.

Tommy you hit on a theme here where "sports betting" and pari mutual wagering is the way to go. You are not wagering against the casino, but against the other players gambling.

LOTS more guys make money in those endevours, sports and horse betting, than they do in the Blackjack tables or poker tables.

I would really like to add one more little tidbit of information for the "kids" if I may.

To cheat in a game with your frineds, that is one thing yea. Maybe you get caught maybe you don't. They don't usually hurt you and it is up to you.

To try to cheat a casino in any fashion, well today is just crazy. The penalties for first time offenders are HUGE. It will absolutly ruin your life and believe me eventually you WILL be caught.

Facial recognition technology, computer controled cameras, extra security. The cat and mouse game as many have called it has swung WAY in favor of the cat. Check the penalties for casino cheating some time.

Now ADVANTAGE players, here in this post and only this post defined as card counters, poker players, and sports betters, are NOT cheating. Counting cards in your head is simply using an advantage. Using a computer to do so is cheating and punishable.

So be carefull and cheat at home in front of your mirror. Unless you like lots of time alone in a small space for a LONG time.

isn't that what magicians allready do??:)

Ya know I think you may be right. Perhaps it is worth the risk!!!!!!

May I also suggest video taping yourself and playng it back at normal speed and slow motion.

You can also check multiple angles this way and avoid the "mirror practice" blinking problem.

Actualy getting caught in a casino cheating gives you PLENTY of time to work on your skills.

Guess that is the upside!

I worked in the casino industry for several years and can pretty much assure you that REGULATED casinos are NOT going to try and cheat you. The odds favor the house on all games and they have no reason to risk a lucrative gaming license by having dealers attempt to con you out of your bets. And if they WERE going to scam you, the easiest and most profitable place to do it is in the area of slots. You have no way of verifying the actual payout percentages from these one arm bandits. And these days, slot do four times the revenue of tablegames...or more.

Now, if you go to an unregulated facility--such as offshore gaming in Florida--there is a much higher likelihood you could get cheated in any number of ways. I know...worked there too. Again, slots are easiest to rig...but there is also less concern about leveling the roulette wheel and no one other than the owner is watching to see what the dealers are doing.

Back to traditional gaming, what the surveillance folks spend most of their time doing is watching dealers. The easiest way to rip off a casino is to have some inside help--meaning a dealer in on the grift. Sure, they watch everything, but there are special efforts taken to make sure a dealer isn't allowing people to past post in craps/roulette or pay off losing hands in BJ. They're also looking for those nifty mechanical devices people try to use on slots...like monkey paws and newer, more efficient means of confounding machine integrity to make it keep dispensing tokens.

I worked with a lot of folks who have been in casinos forever. According to them, 99 out of a hundred people who employ a system--like card counting--end up losing. For a variety of reasons, but mostly because they forget basic strategy. There are, however, laws on the books that allow casinos to eject any player they feel is doing pretty much anything they don't like--which usually means winning big. Casinos do NOT have to prove anything...they can simply ask you to leave. And if you don't, law enforcement will be called. You will end up leaving.

But not before your picture is taken, your vital statistics, etc. and recorded in a database that is shared with casinos throughout the country. Known and suspected cheaters and trouble makers are tracked for observation.

Casino surveillance is a deep, dark secret...lots of mystery and intrigue! And pervasive. With the exception of the restrooms, the surveillance crew can see and record any area of the casino...reading the serial number off a dollar bill. In fact every gaming station is recorded and the tapes kept a certain period of time for review and challenges...say if you claim you were drunk and they shouldn't have allowed you to play. Casinos can--and do--reconstruct your entire visit to the casino...from the moment you walked in, until the moment you stumbled out. It's sorta frightening!

BooRadely

Hi BooRadley,

Informative inside posts. Thanks.

Andrei

Boo your right.

A casino, restaurant, department store or any business can refuse to let you patronoize them for any reason, or for no reason. It is not a right to be able to gamble, it is simply allowed.

Most "system" players lose and lose HUGE. They don't understand what they are doing. No doubt. Call a casino and tell them you have a "system" they will probably send a limo for you. They are not afraid of these people.

No system in the world can help you if every bet you make has a negative expectation. People lose more because they have a "little" bit of knowlege and it takes a WHOLE LOT of it to get a consistant advantage over the casino.