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Bill Nuvo
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Oh yeah Ray...instead of just typing a hard to type name, just copy and paste it. Definatelly a lot easier.
Ron Reid
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Phoenix, Arizona
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Thanks for the responses, everyone. I guess I'm convinced it's fair enough - I just thought it was a bit strange that the dealer refused a refund, seeing that it's a relatively inexpensive item and I do spend a fair amount with them. It did not seem like a good business move on the dealer's part, but I'm not really upset by it.

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Profile of Neil_Brown
Being of a lower quality than expected is not the same as being defective and may or may not be treated as such when it comes to returns. Depending on the vendor.

Apologies for jumping in with my first post in this thread, rather than something more "magically-useful". None of this is legal advice, but, I hope it provides some basis for further thought.

Basically, it is worth checking up on your rights as a consumer- depending on where you are, something may not have to be "defective" before you are entitled to a refund. For example, if you are in England, you are entitled to get a refund if something is (inter alia) a.) not of satisfactory quality, or b.) not fit for the purpose for which is it normally supplied. As such, you may be in the right if you were to insist that the silk were not of satisfactory quality, and that a refund should be offered.

However, bear in mind that insisting on your strict legal rights is not always the best way to ensure a continuing relationship with a supplier; if you spend $1000s of dollars over the course of the year, you've previously had (and expect to continue to have) good service and assistance, and you get on well with the dealer, you might decide that it is better in the long run to take $40 in credit, on the assumption that you'll be spending it with him in future anyway- at least he hasn't tried to say that you have no remedy whatsoever. Alternatively, if you feel strongly enough about it, and you have checked your rights in your own jurisdiction, have a chat with your equivalent of the trading standards department, and see if they can help.

It's worth remembering that, in Europe (although, implementation in different countries may differ in detail), you may have rights under your local equivalent of the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations 2000, based on EU directive. This would apply in the case of Internet sales (as well as general mail order), effectively giving you the right to return almost anything within seven days from the day of receipt of the goods. Bear in mind the "almost," though- there are exceptions, including an exception for "goods ... which by reason of their nature cannot be returned". Now, it's arguable that where you have purchased a magic trick, where the secret is a part of the price, that such a trick could be excluded- by reading the secret, you have already taken value from the trick. However, I very much doubt that this has ever been tested, and, for most people, it is not going to be cost effective to employ a solicitor for their opinion. A silk, however, is unlikely to fall under the exclusion, and so should be returnable. The regulations also deal with the issue of responsibility for return postage costs, depending on whether certain information was made available to you prior to the conclusion of the contract.

OT for this particular post, but, in England at least, it is illegal to display a sign saying "No refunds" or similar (eg. "No refund without a receipt"), because a consumer may have a legal right to one- and it's a right, and not a priviledge.

Hope this helps... None of this is legal advice, but just my take on the situation, and so should not be relied upon. If you need legal advice, consult a solicitor Smile
Ray Haining
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Mrbilldentertainer, hey, it worked. Thanks for the tip. Boy, does this make things a lot easier!
Bill Nuvo
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Glad I could help!
Skip Way
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I see two basic points to consider here: Most magic dealers make the bulk of their income from the curious, beginners and enthusiasts...note that I said "most." The curious and beginners are generally more concerned over price than quality. To remain in business, the dealer must carry the cheaper "slum" props as well as the better quality, higher priced goods expected by the enthusiasts and pros. One supplments the other and keeps the dealer in business.

This said, the hometown magic shop develops a one-on-one relationship with the pro's, semi-pros, and serious enthusiasts in his or her market...and will generally look out for them. My hometown magic shops know my performance level and warn me when I express an interest in something that they feel is below my expectation...or outside of my specific interest.

Online magic shops deal with customers all over the world and, while you may be familiar to them, they really don't "know" you. If you specifically ask for something, all they know is that you want it. With one notable exception, I have never had a satisfying personal association with an online or distance dealer. Out of sight is out of mind.

My hometown magic shops have never refused to refund or replace an item that I found to be beneath my expectations...and slipped past their scrutiny for one reason or another. On the other hand, I've bought a few things without heed to their warnings...and kept the item once I discovered they were right. Anything less would be an abuse of our relationship. Online magic shops simply don't care as strongly because they don't "know" my opinion.

In any case, online and hometown shops have both been stung by unscrupulous people who buy an illusion or prop, use it for a special show, copy the design or instructions or suddenly discover that they simply don't have the skill or desire to perect the illusion...and return it at the dealer's loss. Offering an exchange in place of a cash refund is a viable and reasonable compromise. In fact, in my experience, it is a downright generous offer in light of the less-than-honest jerks who abuse the system.

Ron, if you feel put-off by this, I would suggest calling the dealer directly and expressing your concern in a calm, professional manner...and I can't imagine you responding any other way from your posts. You'll be able to hear his side of the issue and possibly both feel better about it all. On the other hand, he may become a bit more cognizant of your performance level and be more apt to list you as a V.I.P. and warn you away from future crap purchases.
How you leave others feeling after an Experience with you becomes your Trademark.

Magic Youth Raleigh -
Ron Reid
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Phoenix, Arizona
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Hi Skip:

That's good advice - I think I will do exactly as you suggest. I thought I had a good relationship with this dealer, but maybe I just made some assumptions.

Thanks much!

Howard Coberly
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Irvine, California
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On 2006-05-17 22:36, Ron Reid wrote:

I recently purchased an item from a magic dealer; the item arrived in the mail, and I was dissappointed to see the quality was extremely poor. The item wasn't defective - just so poorly made, I would be embarassed to use it in my show.

I asked for a refund, and the dealer said they'd allow me to return it for credit toward future merchandise.

Is that fair? What do you think? BTW...I spend a a fair amount of money with this dealer - maybe a thousand dollars or so per year.


Hi, Ron,

DO NOT ALLOW THIS TO GO HIS WAY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the item is of poor quality he should take it back. Fight it on your credit card.
I am constantly ranting on this forum about just this type of scenario. It has been my experience that store rules of "credit only" do not apply to damaged or poor quality goods if you can prove that the quality is lower than advertised. This may not be the actual legality involved but if they run a reasonable business, they will give back your money to keep you as a customer.

Hammer this guy until he gives back your money (as I recently had to do with a very well known internet magic dealer). Post pictures of the poor quality item on your website, etc.


Post a photo on this forum showing the problems and name the dealer. Truth is the ultimate defense.

"Our town used to be more fortunate...not a single winter passed without the visit of some star.
There used to be famous actors and singers, while today, God only knows! Nobody visits except magicians and organ-grinders. No esthetic satisfaction."
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Eternal Order
Northern California
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Profile of TheAmbitiousCard
I have had this happen a few times with dealer items.
I just take them back, return them to the distributor and refund their money
or get them something else.

it's possible that the distriubutor might not accept the item back if it's not deemed poor quality but it's a risk I'm willing to take for my customers.

it's not worth losing one of my repeat customers over.


I put no other thought into it. Hand Crafted Magic
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Profile of maxello
Give him 2 choices:

Refund you the money.

Refuse you as a future customers.

Then it is up to him.......easy.
Arve Lisland
Rob Johnston
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I know many dealers that won't even refund or exchange due to the fact that "you are buying the secret." I agree with that. However, I do expect the quality to be I am split.
"Genius is another word for magic, and the whole point of magic is that it is inexplicable." - Margot Fonteyn
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Allen, TX
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Profile of bradymc
Asking for a refund (or store credit) for a silk shouldn't be a problem... ever! What? Do you now know the 'secret' to the silk? Unless it is gimmicked in some way, it's just a piece of fabric.

I also believe that building a relationship with your shop of choice does grant you perks. Not that you are entitled to them, but just that they see you as a friend and don't want you to feel ripped off.
Brady McCain
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