The other day I went to my local magic shop looking for gimmicks. I was presented with a couple of different gimmicks but a couple in particular really really got I mean they really suckered me in. I was said this to the assistant and he told me that they definitely were good gimmicks that no-one will ever be able to work out. When I got them home and pulled them out of the box I began working with them and then I realised. There is no more wonder in these tricks for me anymore, from now on if I see anyone else perform that trick or a trick like it I will smile at other peoples wonders or I will appreciate the showmanship of the presentation but I will never be shocked or amazed by it again. This upset me a little.

Now what these gimmicks were is not important the question I am asking here is have there ever been times when you have either learnt a trick that was so good you wish you hadn't or wished that you didn't know what you did so that you could truly appreciate magic from a spectators point of view again. I know there are some tricks myself that I miss being amazed by.

Moyle

All of them. And it's painful. And I am not trying to be sarcastic.

That's the price you pay for knowledge, bud. Think about how the spectators feel when magic is stolen away from them. Think about how hard it will be to ever get back your "spectator's eyes."

Think about how when some doors close, others open.

When I watch a performer, I look for the artistry and the surprise. I don't care if I know how everything he does is done. If it is artistic and entertaining, I enjoy it.

Occasionally, I am completely baffled. And when that happens, I enjoy it. If I learn how something that baffled me is done, it doesn't matter. I still enjoy it.

I used to work on pianos. I can play one well enough to do a piano bar gig. But I still enjoy watching a real master play a piece, even if it is one that I know.

The first time I saw OOTW, about 45 years ago, it baffled me. I paid a guy $15.00 to teach it to me. Later, I found out that I could have learned it for considerably less than that, but I didn't know where it was available. I still do OOTW. I LOVE IT!!!! It's one of the most amazing card tricks in the world. Do I regret knowing how it works? HELL NO!

I may not always be amazed at something, but I am often surprised. The Alan Wakeling Sawing is amazing. Rick Thomas' interpretation of the Asrah is surprising.

For what it is worth, I have worked hard to maintain a certain duality in this nature. I know the reality of Santa Clause, but I still believe in him. No, I'm not mental, as has been suggested in at least three other threads in this section. I simply appreciate what we do, the way we do it, and what it is ment to represent. I've been saying, but few have been listening. I believe in magic., I believe what we do is magic. I know how what I do is done. These are all contradictions, but you can really reach a mental state where contradictions like that just aren't a problem.

"Close your eyes for your eyes will only tell the truth, and the truth isn't what you want to see. In the dark it is easy to pretend, that the truth is what it aught to be."
-Music of the Night-
Andrew Lloyd Webber

Good Answers guys. That's all I can say.

Moyle

Well you're apparently still able to think through an experience with magic. There may still be hope for you so get out as quickly as you can. Just run! If the bug gets ya bad enough, you'll graduate to thinking and approaches wherein you'll do whatever it takes to acquire the effect, rehearse it to death, and perform it for audiences as long as you can draw a breath. And it's all void of the recent disappointment you've had.

I think your signature says it all:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave
When we first decide to deceive"

Being just a naive armature card guy like me has it’s benefits: I can still watch a magicians performance and believe what I am seeing is magic. I know subconsciously it’s not real magic but it sure looks it to me.

Now you understand one of the golden rules?
A magician never reveals his secret.

Also remember how some who truly have seen it all feel:



That is very hopeful to know for one who may perform age old effects before them. On the other hand, if the spectator has never seen the effects then great!

I've seen several long threads here regarding the loss of 'wonder' or 'mystery' when the performer found out how the trick was accomplished. Acquiring and discovering what the gimmick was never disappointed me as the effect it had on me was still at the forefront and my position was to duplicate the effect and ultimately the same surprise in another spectator.

"Remember: wonder and amazement is a two-way street. Just because you know how something is done doesn't mean that you can't enjoy the wonder it invokes in others, because THAT is where the REAL magic lies. There is wonder and amazement to be had just in watching the wonder and amazement in your audience's faces." - Tony Andruzzi, 1972

Some of the most important words any magic teacher has ever said to me.

To which I can only add: "Wonder doesn't necessarily go away if you know how something is done. Remember how you first reacted to it and think on this: someone had to come up with it first - wonder also lies there."

Not particularly profound on my part, but add Bill's quote to Tony's and I think you may have something, for certain.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

If someone insists on reminding me of what I know, thus ruining a performance... that is up to them.

I don't make efforts to remember this stuff, and much prefer to be entertained.

Go for it.

No way back. Couple of stories written about that; the one about the guy who ate the apple, and the one about the king who found out who his wife really was.

Only way is to appreciate on another level. You're not a magic virgin anymore


Jack Shalom

Moyle, great post.

I expect every magician becomes aware of how they're destroying magic for themselves at some point.

If they know a method, then they won't be able to intentionally forget it when watching a performance. The closest they'll come to experiencing "magic" will be recall the experience before they knew the method for a trick. Otherwise, they'll merely be imagining that the magic is real, but they won't actually be experiencing "magic," at least not using the definition of "magic" that Maskelyne or Whit Haydn stated. (Whit Haydn stated it in other topics, not here).

There are exceptions.

When a routine is practiced over and over again for a very long time so that it becomes totally automatic, i.e. it's all muscle memory, it's possible to start daydreaming while practicing. Then, when a magical effect occurs, it can be unexpected. I think this has probably happened to any experienced magician a lot of times. It's an odd feeling, and it is magic. The experience of fooling oneself is both strange and amusing. It's a reminder of what magic is all about.

This can also occur when watching someone else perform if a method is forgotten, because of either the passage of time or because of a new context, perhaps a different presentation. I've been fooled by tricks that use a method I know quite well, and only later realized, or found out, that I had read about the method long before. I expect this has also happened to any magician that hangs around with other competent magicians.

I do wonder if it isn't best if a magician always sees a trick a sufficiently long time before learning the secret, so at least there is the memory of the experience of wonder.

I was amused reading a topic about "Twisting the Aces" where some people were posting that it wasn't that great. Having gotten great reactions when performing this, I know it's a fantastic routine.

I wonder if the people who thought that it wasn't very good were fooled by it while watching a DVD and then immediately learned the secret, so they never assimilated the amazement they felt, or would have felt if they had to wait. It would explain the attitude. Understand, I don't mind it if people learn right away, I certainly learned most tricks I know from books, and I saw very few of them performed before reading about them. However, I do wish magicians rated tricks by how audience's felt about them instead of considering their own feelings. I think the best magicians probably do that.

I believe a magician should learn to look amazed as appropriate to the presentation, whether actually amazed or not. It does help to pretend that it's all real.

I feel no regret at knowing methods. I've noticed that magicians still want to attend other magician's shows. Knowledge changes how we appreciate magic, but it doesn't make magic less enjoyable. It's fun to perform too.

Bill, that's an awful linear way to look at magic, thought, and experience. Trust me, there are other, better, more practical ways.

Speak for yourself. Till someone shows me the problems or issues I don't go looking.

You don't go looking. Neither do I. But can you truly forget?

When I saw David Oliver's Zombie, I was entranced, and for those five minutes, I was more thoroughly entertained by magic than perhaps I've ever been. BUT. . . while much of my enchantment was the same as most of the lay audience was experiencing, another piece of it was the acknowledgement of Mr. Oliver's magical artistry and choices--choices that a lay audience by definition wouldn't understand.

It's the same with the increasing knowledge of any art--we get to appreciate the art that conceals the art. We get to appreciate the art that creates the art.

This is a good thing, I think. I don't think we have to try to become magic virgins again if we're not--pleasurable as that may have been; nor, on the other hand, do we have to see each performance as a professional puzzle for us to unpack. We can still enjoy, appreciate, and even be enchanted, just not in the same way anymore.

And of course when I say We, I mean I. I'm always only speaking for myself. That's implied I would think in this kind of discussion. My intention was to assure Moyle that he was not alone, and that there were still ways to deal with the situation.


Jack Shalom

Thanks guys. You all had very interesting ways of looking at this situation. I just used to enjoy watching magic so much I almost felt like I didn't want to learn anymore so I could still be amazed. You have all given me some great new ways of looking at myself as a magician and realised that not being able to be as much of a spectator as I once was maybe isn't such a bad thing thanks guys your all legends.

Moyle

I've asked some of my friends in other performing arts if they have run into this problem and they ALL said, "yes, but you eventually outgrow it, if you're lucky." Guitarists often go through a stage where they only see the technique of the performer and miss the music, itself. Artists go through a stage where all they see are the brush stroke methods, the handling of the color contrasts and the use of media and vocalists often go through a stage of listening for how a vocalists supports, intonates, handles vibrato, phrasing and the like and misses the overall effect.

"And then you grow out of it, if you're lucky."

What WONDERFUL words!

It happened to me many years ago when I watched Slydini for the first time on a Dick Cavett special and he did the Paper Balls to Bottomless Box routine. I forgot all about technique, about body position, angles, direction of attention and all of that technical stuff and I watched the MAGIC!

And for that gift, I have to thank a Master Magician who I never even got to meet.

I can only hope that everyone on thos forum can get that same gift, sometime, in their lives as well.

Lee Darrow, C.H.

I wish I could tape myself watching these wonderful effects. When I'm at a dead-end, I try to remind myself how I felt when I first saw them. To a great extent I have lost those memories, but once a while I see a reaction from a spectator which reminds me why I'm doing this. A big smile from a little girl who can't talk yet or somebody telling me of an effect they saw 40 years ago.

We are on the other side of the mirror now. There is no going back, we can only move forward and make other people looking in the mirror happy.

Whenever I purchased an effect that impressed me the first time, I quickly went to work practicing and enjoying the opportunity to master it. The first and subsequent reactions have always outweighed my possible losss of interest in it following it's exposure to me.

For those of us who don't experience that loss of wonder, I suppose our reason for purchasing or finding out how it's done is to REPRODUCE THE SAME WONDER IN OTHERS. Finding out how it was really done is not disappointing. Finding out how it was done and owning it is an opportunity to spark the same wonder in others.