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CJRichard
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I've been reading this off and on and have not been completely through all seven pages, so I'm not sure if this has been brought up.

Is it or is it not true that magic tends to be a hobby that interests boys more than girls? As a boy, I was interested in dinosaurs, rockets, science, plastic model building, puppetry and magic. Except perhaps for the puppetry, a lot of boys I knew were interest in these same things. Very few girls seemed to be.

Very close to my home when I was a boy, there was a small magic/joke shop. I used to love the place. Another boy in town, two years younger than I, was Jon Stetson. He also frequented this shop. Lynn Dillies grew up two towns over and I've read that she also spent lots of time in the same shop. I guarantee you that Lynn probably was one of very few girls who were regular customers.

It seems to me that women who truly love magic and work at it hard enough to become professionals can and do succeed. There may be fewer of them not because of any kind of discrimination, but simply because during childhood, magic tends to appeal more to boys.
"You know some of you are laughin', but there's people here tryin' to learn. . ." -Pop Haydn

"I know of no other art that proclaims itself 'easy to do.'" -Master Payne

Ezekiel the Green
bishthemagish
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Looking at it from another point of view about my sister and one or two woman magicians that I have known is that they often quit show business to have a family. If they marry a person not in show business they often quit doing it. The guy doesn't like being the person to carry the props from show to show. And being a small part of "HER" thing. Plus the boyfriend doesn't like his girl getting hit on at a show - so a muggle boyfriend or husband can cause problems.

Another odd thing is that if there boyfriend is a magician often I have seen the girl magician who is a magician in their own right become assistant in the guy's act. And if they can they do a short novelty act in their boyfriends larger show.

I do not understand why some woman with a lot of talent and drive and great looks do not try to make it on their own. But it seems doing an act and being on the road can be lonely and a hard grind.

Later.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

Producer of the DVD Punch Deal Pro

Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
magicalaurie
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Covered, CJ. Smile
Dave V
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I read a book recently about gender bias and the trend to treat our children differently starting at childhood.

For example:
Watch a dad with his two kids in the ocean. He'll stand with his little boy and have him brave the oncoming wave head on. With his daughter, he lifts her safely over the wave. Women (most, not all) are taught from childhood that men are their "protectors." It's an uphill battle from then on.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On 2006-05-31 23:01, Dave VanVranken wrote:
Watch a dad with his two kids in the ocean. With his daughter, he lifts her safely over the wave. Women (most, not all) are taught from childhood that men are their "protectors." It's an uphill battle from then on.


Would that were true for me, Dave. I wouldn't have minded being lifted over the wave. At the beach one day, my Dad obliviously set my sister and I adrift: chest-deep in water with the waves pulling us out, then DISAPPEARED. True story. Some teenager got my sister back to shore. I don't remember how I got back there. It's an uphill battle without the protector, too. Definitely.
Lee Darrow
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Okay, Lauire, you asked, so I will comply. I have to admit that I am posting this with a pretty high expectation of it getting pulled. But I will post it anyway, because I really believe what I am about to say and I believe someone needs to say it.

The following opinions are solely my own and do not necessarily reflect those of themagiccafe.com, its members, management or any sane person. They are solely mine. If you agree - well and fine. If not, that's okay, too. It's a free country where I live, at least at the moment. All PMs of agreement will be greatfully acknowledged, all flames will be cheerfully ignored and deleted.

-------------------- STRONG OPINIONS FOLLOW - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! ------------

DISCRIMINATION BASED ON GENDER IS WRONG! Period.

And it is one of the reasons that I don't attend many magic conventions or go to many magic clubs very often. While freedom of speech is a thorny issue, because it gives the same right to say something to someone who supports unpopoular beliefs as it does to those who support the more favorably accepted ones, it is, nonetheless, something that has to be applied equally, or it is not being applied at all.

However, freedom of speech is not, in my opinion, the same thing as gender-based (or racially-based or anything else-based except ability-based) discrimination. And by discrimination, I mean to be able to exclude someone based ONLY on the lack of ability. A STANDARD of PRACTICE, which is used to say, s"Sorry, but you don't qualify to join, YET," is perfectly acceptable in my worldview, so long as it allows the applicant another shot, at a later date, when they have had a chance to practice and improve. Or to learn if they can't perform for a reason of physical limitation. - AND so long as that standard is applied EQUALLY TO ALL!

I have seen the Old Boys Network in action at more than a few conventions and, when I did, I got into a bit of hot water for calling a few people on it. The late Tony Andruzzi and I (along with a number of others in the Bizarrist movement in the early days) talked about this frequently and felt that it was a Bad Thing. Tony, at least, actually did something about it by booking more than a few female acts at the Invocationals. Yet still, there were grumblings from certain members of the fraternity.

And, to my mind, therein lies part of the rub - we STILL refer to ourselves as a "fraternity" which is a male-oriented term, regardless of how you cut it. And the idea of "fraternitas" has been carried by some, in my opinion, WAY too far.

Equality between the sexes in magic is long overdue and still lacking.

Don't believe me? - Look at the programs at magic conventions. Look at how many women applicants to perform have been turned away - how many jokes about certain performer's decollatages, IQ's, or who is "doing" whom run rampant at these things and then, honestly try to tell anyone, with a straight face, that sexism isn't alive and kicking at magic conventions. Look at the "Women's programs" at magic conventions which, up until very recently (and still in a number of magic conventions) consisted of cooking demonstrations, city tours, sewing circles and Q & A sessions on childcare issues and not on magic at all! Not sexist? How about not addressing the interests of the females who want to BE magicians?

And, honestly, if a guy can't handle being the assistant and hauling the props, then maybe he needs to re-examine his relationship with the lady in question - or maybe SHE needs to re-examine HER relation with HIM!

Not only that, but it's become public knowledge that, in certain parts of the world, women are excluded from joining ANY organization simply because they ARE women. To my limited worldview, that is wrong, too. If that makes me apostate, infidel, blasphemer or an abomination - so be it! I will wear the appellation with pride and be hanged to anyone who tries to do anything damaging to me or anyone I know about it.

While I will defend unto the death the right of someone to speak their mind, I also reserve the right to speak MY mind, especially when I disagree with that person and, on the issue of sexism, I wholeheartedly disagree with the concept.

Now, after all of that, there's a good chance that I have stepped on some toes, annoyed more than a few people and showed that I am woefully out of touch with reality. That could be, but I based everything I said on things I have seen in my almost 40 years in this business and only ask that, if you are going to disagree with me that you PLEASE cite some concrete examples that show that the majority of the people in the groups you refer to in your rebuttal contradict my post.

If you do, I will most heartily apologize.

------------------- END OF STRONG OPINION SECTION - THANKS FOR READING ------

Respectfully,

Lee Darrow, C.H.
http://www.leedarrow.com
<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
magicalaurie
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Thankyou, Lee. Smile
Dave V
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Quote:
On 2006-05-31 23:28, magicalaurie wrote:
Would that were true for me, Dave. I wouldn't have minded being lifted over the wave. At the beach one day, my Dad obliviously set my sister and I adrift: chest-deep in water with the waves pulling us out, then DISAPPEARED. True story. Some teenager got my sister back to shore. I don't remember how I got back there. It's an uphill battle without the protector, too. Definitely.


Hmmm, that might partly explain why you're here instead of arranging flowers or knitting sweaters. Smile
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
magicalaurie
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Hey, Dave, my grandmother taught me how to knit and I LIKE flowers. Smile Nice try. Smile
Dave V
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...and I can sew my own clothes. My Dad taught me. Go figure.
No trees were killed in the making of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.
EsnRedshirt
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 00:37, Dave VanVranken wrote:
...and I can sew my own clothes. My Dad taught me. Go figure.

And I know how to apply my own makeup.

Um, it's not like that Smile Anyone who performs on stage should know how- spotlights tend to make you look rather pale without makeup.
Self-proclaimed Jack-of-all-trades and google expert*.

* = Take any advice from this person with a grain of salt.
magicalaurie
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Absolutely.
kregg
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Why do "hunky" guys dominate the box office?
Because the studios know from experience how to attract women.
POOF!
magicalaurie
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How do they attract the general public?
kregg
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With G ratings.
POOF!
Josh the Superfluous
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Are there any sleights named after a woman? (besides "Miss Direction")
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
Margarette
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Lee makes some valid points! I will admit that I have had my share of unsavory things said about me at magic conventions, but it doesn't stop me from attending (money usually stops me from attending!). I have had my share of inquiries as to whose assistant/mother/significant other I was, and the "oh really?!" when I responded that I was the magician. I have been told that some of my performances have not been "ladylike"(did you know women aren't supposed to do escapes?). Which makes me wonder, have any men been told that their performances are "unmanly"? I have been ignored at dealer's tables (not just in magic, I've had this happen at gun shows).

Regarding the "woman magician" on the convention line-up: Bill Pitts at his most recent Cavalcade had a show devoted solely to women performers. Now, for the disheartening part...only two of us performed...Lucy Sanders and myself. HOWEVER, our styles were so different that the audience got to experience one extreme (my escapes) to the other (Lucy's classic, and wonderful, Linking Ring routine). Even with the small number of performers, he said he would like to continue that show on the Cavalcade schedule. It will be interesting to see if there are more performers next year.

Regarding relationships and the magician, I have a thought that may get slammed, but this is from personal experience. Since a lot of my socializing is done within the magic community, I have had one or two attempts at a relationship with male magicians. The magician ego is a mountain very difficult to conquer. They ended up making it a competition as to whom the better magician was (you mean, you can't do a onehandtiedbehindtheback, overhand, backward, inside-out simultaneous shuffle while blindfolded and standing on your head? Well, I can!). I wasn't in a competition...I was looking for conversation and male human companionship! Men outside the magic community seemed to think it cool that I am a magician, however when I'd choose making money in order to put food on the table and keeping electricity on over going to dinner and the movies, complaints of "you never make time for me" started to surface. Well, being a single parents takes prioritizing everything, and I'm sorry, my kids need to be fed more than I need to see a movie! I've decided that I'm going to be the neighborhood Crazy Cat Lady whom all the kiddies think is a witch because of my love of halloween and all the cats hanging around!

Margarette (who already has a head start on the Crazy part!)
The only stupid question is the one not asked.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2006-05-31 21:06, Whit Haydn wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-05-31 18:00, tommy wrote:
Whit

Are you talking about a magicians convention? If so what has that do with it? The point is it does not matter what magicians think about each other as far as sucess is concerned. Or does it? I don't know. I mean if all magicians in the world thought Jill was better than Jack, would that matter a jot to the public if they thought otherwise. I have never been to magicians so I don't know what you mean.

Tommy


Yes, Tommy--this is how a lot of magic conventions are booked.

It is not just about how magicians think about each other.

Women do not have the same chances to show their work, promote products and so on even within our own "fraternity."

They are not hired equally, on merit, but rather are forced to compete against each other for the "woman's slot" on the bill.

It is not a woman competing for manipulation against other manipulators, it is a woman competing against women illusionists, women manipulators, women dove workers, women comedy talking acts, etc. for the one woman's magic spot on the program.

The male magicians do not have to compete the same way for a position on the show. There is room for six or eight men on the bill, but only room for one woman.

Why do tou think that is, Whit?
Is it because we would rather watch men perform magic? I know I would.
Does this make me a bad person? I know what I like as a spectator. So does the general public. They and I tend to prefer the magical performances of men overall.
You can keep pretending.
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2006-05-31 21:39, bishthemagish wrote:
Looking at it from another point of view about my sister and one or two woman magicians that I have known is that they often quit show business to have a family. If they marry a person not in show business they often quit doing it. The guy doesn't like being the person to carry the props from show to show. And being a small part of "HER" thing. Plus the boyfriend doesn't like his girl getting hit on at a show - so a muggle boyfriend or husband can cause problems.

Another odd thing is that if there boyfriend is a magician often I have seen the girl magician who is a magician in their own right become assistant in the guy's act. And if they can they do a short novelty act in their boyfriends larger show.

I do not understand why some woman with a lot of talent and drive and great looks do not try to make it on their own. But it seems doing an act and being on the road can be lonely and a hard grind.

Later.

Many have tried, Bish, Many have tried. Very Very few have succeeded. Why? ask the paying public. Or for an opinion opposite to that of magic fans and audiences, ask Whit.
The list of successful women you provided was enlightening and comprehensive, however you must agree that many if not most of those womenj were somehow related to a successful male magician either by blood or by marriage.
Women magicians are novel.
When we want to see the best of the best we turn to men. Vernon, Slydini, Kaps, Houdin, Thurston, Devant, Bamberg, Cardini etc. Audiences appreciate a good female act; but that's exactly what it is- a female act.
Their lack of success is not because they lack promotional skills or business savvy. It is because when people want to see "magic" they want to see it performed by a man.
" Oh look honey she's not an assistant, she's the actual magician. Ha ha that's cute." " And ya know what? she was actually pretty *** good! Now get ready cause Seigfried and Roy are on next!"

Bingo
Magicfish
Whit Haydn
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I wouldn't rather watch men perform magic.

I like to watch good magic, whether performed by women or men.

And I have seen wonderful performances by women magicians such as Jade, Suzanne, Juliana Chen, Luna Shemada, Kathy Diamond, Sophie Evans, June Merlin, Becky Blaney, Arian Black, Misty Lee, Cherie Kay, Tina Lenert, Mystina, Romany, Lisa Mena, Princess Tenko and many others that I enjoyed thoroughly and would love to see again.

Your preference for men magicians is fine. It is good that you know what you like. I am glad that you are proud of your opinion.

Please don't pretend that it is anything more than an irrational prejudice, no different than saying that "black men will never be great golfers."

The reason the convention shows are booked the way they are is because of an irrational sexual bias on the part of those booking the shows.

Your inability to see this is caused by your own irrational blinders.
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