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bishthemagish
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 15:29, magicfish wrote:
Many have tried, Bish, Many have tried. Very Very few have succeeded. Why? ask the paying public. Or for an opinion opposite to that of magic fans and audiences, ask Whit.

Sorry I do not agree.

Having known and spent time with Celeste Evens who was a very successful woman magician at several 3 sheeters events. Having had here give me lessons in magic and she was the one that first showed me how to do the Lorayne "Lazy Mans Card trick". Plus how to care for doves. Plus a lot of ideas on how to put a successful music act together.

Celeste Evens was very successful and very professional and booked into the TOP night clubs and venues of her day. If you account success by those you have named you would have to include her and Dell O'Dell.
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 15:29, magicfish wrote:
many if not most of those women were somehow related to a successful male magician either by blood or by marriage.

Sorry Dell O'Dell was married to a Juggler dog act, and Celeste Evens was Married to her agent Harry Bryne. I know because he booked me to.
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 15:29, magicfish wrote:
Women magicians are novel. When we want to see the best of the best we turn to men. Vernon, Slydini, Kaps, Houdin, Thurston, Devant, Bamberg, Cardini etc. Audiences appreciate a good female act; but that's exactly what it is- a female act.
Their lack of success is not because they lack promotional skills or business savvy. It is because when people want to see "magic" they want to see it performed by a man.

Horse hocky.

Magic is not as popular as you think it is. Magic is interesting only to magicians and people that like magic. People do not go out to see a magic show the way they go out to see sporting events. Or the way they will have season tickets to go see theater and plays.

People only see magic almost by accident. That is that they go see a show and magic is in the show and it is a supporting act. Or "hey there is a magician here we should have brought the kids". Few magicians pulled the big audiences and died rich.

Why? The big show has a large overhead.

I love watching good magic done by good magicians. Man or woman - and it doesn't mater where they come from or what color or nation. Good magic is good magic by any good magician.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Whit Haydn
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[quote]On 2006-06-01 15:29, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
The list of successful women you provided was enlightening and comprehensive, however you must agree that many if not most of those womenj were somehow related to a successful male magician either by blood or by marriage.


That is because unless you were related by blood or marriage, you were not allowed into the club.

How were women supposed to learn magic when they were not accepted as students, allowed into the cliques--much less admitted to the clubs and societies of magic?

Or are you suggesting that they were successful because they had some "male blood" in them?

Lot's of famous male magicians were related to other male magicians by "blood or marriage"--Harry Blackstone, Jr., Hardeen, David Bamberg, etc.

What point are you trying to make?

Magicfish, I don't know who you are, and I don't mean to be insulting, but perhaps you have just not had the opportunity to watch and meet a lot of women performers, or to session with many women. Maybe you are not a full-time pro, or you live in an area where there is not a lot of show business.

Perhaps if you had a better feeling for the seriousness and knowledgeability of so many great women magicians, you would not have such weird and slanted attitudes.

I am not surprised that you thought I was "pretending."

It has been my experience that people that hold onto irrational prejudices are so convinced of these attitudes that anyone who claims not to share them is simply being "politically correct" or is "too cowardly" to admit their "true" feelings.

I grew up in the South in the 1950's. Many people I have known have defended pure boorishness as "honesty" and racism as "simple realism."

If you expressed sympathy for the civil rights struggle, someone would inevitably come up with the rejoinder "Would you want your sister to marry one?"

They would assume so completely that no one could really accept this possibility, that the statement would instantly ground the weak brother or sister and unmask their hypocrisy.

Even so many years later, I hear the same echoes in the talk of those who are threatened by women or foreigners.

I am not just being politically correct or posing as a friend of women. I have many women friends in magic, enjoy their company and performances, and think of them as equal to my male magician friends in every way.
Payne
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 15:15, magicfish wrote:
I tend to prefer the magical performances of men overall.

I know whatahmean, say no more, say no more, know whatahmean, nudge nudge, wink wink.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
magicalaurie
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On 2006-06-01 15:29, magicfish wrote:
Quote:
Now get ready cause Seigfried and Roy are on next!"


That's Siegfried. Smile Who saw that coming? Smile
tommy
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Whit

Thank you for taking the time to explain all this to me. I had thought it was a leval playing field. I can now see that it's not. It seems to me it don't matter, even if it was a fact, for sake of argument, that women were not as good as men they should still be allowed to play by the same rules. If not then that is worse than cheating if you ask me.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 16:09, Whit Haydn wrote:
Please don't pretend that it is anything more than an irrational prejudice, no different than saying that "black men will never be great golfers."


Saying that the paying public doesn't (in general) care for female magicians is much different than saying a certain people group (women, black men, whatever) can never be skilled enough to achieve top class skill.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
bishthemagish
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Come to think of it there are a few places that people will go out to see magic and it has a following and has helped magic for years. And that place is the Magic Castle. Now that is a place people go to see the best magic.

One of the big problems in magic is that it really doesn't have a stage to do it and get steady work like it was in the days of the variety theaters that booked the old time vaudeville acts. There used to be what was called family time and TV had family time but that also seems to be now a part of the past.

Men magicians, woman magicians. Where do they find steady work? Wherever they can in today's show business markets!
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
Whit Haydn
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 19:14, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 16:09, Whit Haydn wrote:
Please don't pretend that it is anything more than an irrational prejudice, no different than saying that "black men will never be great golfers."


Saying that the paying public doesn't (in general) care for female magicians is much different than saying a certain people group (women, black men, whatever) can never be skilled enough to achieve top class skill.


It is the same thing, if the belief that "the paying public does not (in general) care for female magicians" isn't based on any evidence, but is merely an assumption based on a self-fulfilling prejudice.

People used the same argument against black baseball players--"White people won't pay to see them play."

What evidence can anyone offer that people will not care for female magicians? The ones that I know are very successful, well-accepted by the public, and more easily booked than male magicians.

If woman magicians aren't given the same chances as men, how can we know?
sepaternoster
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Quote:
On 2006-05-31 04:19, Lee Darrow wrote:
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.


Mr. Darrow,

I was so caught up in the discussion here that I totally missed this one until I started re-reading tonight, to catch up again. Ah, good ol' chemistry... Smile

Anyway, I second what Magicalaurie said, "Thank you". You put it out there, and it hasn't been yanked. To think, I was just about to suggest that we move the discussion to someone's blog. On second thought, that's probably a really bad idea.

This discussion is an excellent example of what I like about the Magic Café. I spent a long time "lurking" around various magic sites. Until I discovered this place, I was very disappointed; I found many of the discussions to be of the "Yeah! let's argue on the internet--Insults 'R' Us" type. I saw many people get kicked around for no good reason. When I want to witness that kind of childish behavior (which isn't often), I can go over to Slashdot. From what I've seen, the Café is different. Sure, people sometimes disagree, but respectfully. So far, even this hot topic has remained civil. I am really enjoying this thread, as much for the handling as for the content.
Seth E. Paternoster
Lee Darrow
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First, Laurie, thanks for the kind words, and everyone else who said supportive things about my rant. They are appreciated. This is kind of a hot button issue for me and, sometimes, I have a bit of trouble with keeping my cool on it, so, again, thanks.

Quote:
On 2006-06-01 13:42, Margarette wrote:
Lee makes some valid points! I will admit that I have had my share of unsavory things said about me at magic conventions, but it doesn't stop me from attending (money usually stops me from attending!). I have had my share of inquiries as to whose assistant/mother/significant other I was, and the "oh really?!" when I responded that I was the magician. I have been told that some of my performances have not been "ladylike"(did you know women aren't supposed to do escapes?). Which makes me wonder, have any men been told that their performances are "unmanly"? I have been ignored at dealer's tables (not just in magic, I've had this happen at gun shows).

Regarding the "woman magician" on the convention line-up: Bill Pitts at his most recent Cavalcade had a show devoted solely to women performers. Now, for the disheartening part...only two of us performed...Lucy Sanders and myself. HOWEVER, our styles were so different that the audience got to experience one extreme (my escapes) to the other (Lucy's classic, and wonderful, Linking Ring routine). Even with the small number of performers, he said he would like to continue that show on the Cavalcade schedule. It will be interesting to see if there are more performers next year.


While I applaud the fact that you and Lucy performed, the fact that there even WAS such a program that even had to be noted as being "devoted to female performers" simply points UP the fact that there is STILL discrimination based on gender in magic!

It will only be when there no longer has to be, nor even is a THOUGHT OF mentioning gender, that the gender gap in magic will have been bridged. To be honest, that applies across society as a whole, too.

While Bill Pitts' effort may be a step in the right direction (and, as I said, I allpaud any effort to bridge that gap), I can also understand why some people may have chosen NOT to have gone on stage as performers for the effort simply because of the statement that the program item WAS a segregationist event in a way.

However, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step and if it was well received by the audience and more people sign up for it next year, maybe it could be a help.

Or maybe it will simply point up the polarization between the genders that already exists in magic even more.

It's a tough call for me to make, not having been there - the context and how it was presented can make a world of difference in these things, obviously. Like a pilot friend of mine says - "If it flies, it flies. If it dies, it dies. You can only launch it and see what happens." I can only hope that the effort brings about a positive result for all concerned.

Quote:
Regarding relationships and the magician, I have a thought that may get slammed, but this is from personal experience. Since a lot of my socializing is done within the magic community, I have had one or two attempts at a relationship with male magicians. The magician ego is a mountain very difficult to conquer. They ended up making it a competition as to whom the better magician was (you mean, you can't do a onehandtiedbehindtheback, overhand, backward, inside-out simultaneous shuffle while blindfolded and standing on your head? Well, I can!). I wasn't in a competition...I was looking for conversation and male human companionship! Men outside the magic community seemed to think it cool that I am a magician, however when I'd choose making money in order to put food on the table and keeping electricity on over going to dinner and the movies, complaints of "you never make time for me" started to surface. Well, being a single parents takes prioritizing everything, and I'm sorry, my kids need to be fed more than I need to see a movie! I've decided that I'm going to be the neighborhood Crazy Cat Lady whom all the kiddies think is a witch because of my love of halloween and all the cats hanging around!

Margarette (who already has a head start on the Crazy part!)


Margarette, now you know how some men magicians feel when THEIR wives pull the same lines on THEM when they need to go out to do a gig to pull in that little extra bit of cash needed to cover the bills or that surprise expense that pops up every now and then!

;)

I wish more women had your perspective on how it feels to be in that particular position, especially as a performer. My sister-in-law, who was staying with us recently, after the death of her husband, pitched a major grumpy when I said that I could not go out on Easter for brunch because I was working, doing a show that morning. The fact that my wife also had to go in to work that day. She works for a major Chicago hotel.

It took both of us to explain to her that this is how it happens in a showbiz family - holidays aren't. You WORK on holidays. Weekends aren't - that's often the core OF your work week! and evenings are usually when we work the most, not 9 to 5 like "normal" people with "real" jobs.

It took about two weeks for this to sink in as she watched me work the phones, the mail and the internet trying to GET work. It finally clicked with her when I got the 5-city tour gig for Sandals Resorts... but like Egg Shen said in "Big Trouble in Little China" - "Wasn't easy!"

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
sepaternoster
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Quote:
On 2006-06-01 19:18, bishthemagish wrote:
Come to think of it there are a few places that people will go out to see magic and it has a following and has helped magic for years. And that place is the Magic Castle. Now that is a place people go to see the best magic.

One of the big problems in magic is that it really doesn't have a stage to do it and get steady work like it was in the days of the variety theaters that booked the old time vaudeville acts. There used to be what was called family time and TV had family time but that also seems to be now a part of the past.

Men magicians, woman magicians. Where do they find steady work? Wherever they can in today's show business markets!



Interesting, I was just thinking about this question earlier today. I'm not sure if we're drifting off-topic here, but I'll go along; if we get too far off course, we can start a new thread.

I've heard people suggest that television has cut into people's desire to go out and see live entertainment. My current thinking is that Reality TV is so bad that people we soon tire of it, and live entertainment will regain momentum. Also, I feel Reality TV is here to stay, because I imagine it is cheap (which means TV execs. must love it). You don't have pay real actors, the production can be sloppy, and the script writing can be horrible...

On the other hand, how about a new reality series, "The World's Greatest Unknown Magician"? It could have an episode for each of the different categories, coins, cards, mentalism, etc. Women and men competing together, with all the world voting for their favorites...

Caution: Unless I forced the card, my predictions tend to be WAY off. I thought "Rap" would suffer the same untimely death as "Disco". Smile
Seth E. Paternoster
Margarette
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Lee, as I was typing the "you never make time for me" line, I was just wondering how many men heard that line from women. I can't remember who said "at the end of every show, you are unemployed", but is really does ring true. When I was performing full time, I can't remember the number of times I had to miss family gatherings because I was working. I've also had to schedule my kids' birthday parties around shows I've booked. The only thing I really regretted and promised I'd never do again was when I was in NYC performing over Mother's Day. That decision was mainly because of the way I felt...not how my kids felt.

Margarette
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Chessmann
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Quote:
Whit wrote:
It is the same thing, if the belief that "the paying public does not (in general) care for female magicians" isn't based on any evidence, but is merely an assumption based on a self-fulfilling prejudice.

People used the same argument against black baseball players--"White people won't pay to see them play."



Whit, your other quote mentioned regarding black players had to do with *ability* (you mentioned black golfers). Now you have changed back to the original observation - whether or not something will be accepted by the general public. In reading Magicfish's posts, it was based on his (her? - chuckle) observations, and thoughts about the future.

And you are right - that observation regarding accepting black baseball players was proved wrong, as ability won out over prejudice.

Baseball has to do with ability - if you have success, the public will find a way to love you. Magic is different - an audience doesn't pull for a magician in the same way they would pull for their beloved team. It is much easier to accept someone who is bringing success to your team.

Time dealt with the black baseball observation. Time will tell with this issue, as well.

Quote:
What evidence can anyone offer that people will not care for female magicians? The ones that I know are very successful, well-accepted by the public, and more easily booked than male magicians.

If woman magicians aren't given the same chances as men, how can we know?


No proof is available on the future, as we know. Magicfish made an observation that he/she ;^) thinks it will not change - that audiences will continue to prefer men as magicians. And you are right, we may not know in our lifetime. More women need to get involved in magic. Like American soccer - we stank, until a whole ton of youth got addicted to it. Our coaching and training got better, we had a lot more class players to select our national team from, resulting in world cup appearances. I, personally, have no reason to feel that women can't compete in magic with men. But it will be interesting to remember this thread and see how things develop. Will there be a female/females magician(s) who will act as a standard bearer, as Houdini, et al.... inspired many to get into the arena?

We'll see!
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
sepaternoster
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Let's do the Reality Series, and let the public vote. Then we'll know where we are, and we might even influence the future.
Seth E. Paternoster
Josh the Superfluous
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A lot of the greats had facial hair. I'm sure it has something to do with it. Blaine isn't that good and he only has stubble. Magicalaurie let's do a test; Try performing with a fake beard and see what kind of reaction you get.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2
magicalaurie
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Posted: Jun 1, 2006 11:51pm
---------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 23:49, Josh the Superfluous wrote:
Magicalaurie let's do a test; Try performing with a fake beard and see what kind of reaction you get.

Been there, done that. Smile
Chessmann
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Instead of a fake beard, apply a large, fake mole with 3 long, black hairs coming out of it.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Chrystal
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Hi Again,

I've been busy for a while and suprised to find this post had jumped to nine pages!
To answer some of the previous questions asked. No, I don't think Melinda hurt the craft for women and like Vinnie, I think she's beautiful too. She performed in quite a large show in Vegas. Unfortunately Melinda has been retired from magic for some time. While her style is/was different from mine, as a fellow performer, I have to give her credit for what she did.

There are many talented female performers whose talents I applaud. They are too numerous for me to mention here and I also don't want to mistakenly leave someone out. I disagree with the earlier comments regarding women will never be a good as men. I think there are those whose stars shine brighter than others, regardless of gender.

As for the Café, there are numerous female magicians that are members. Most choose to keep their gender private and so no avatar pic. Many of you may be suprised that the opinions you seek may indeed come from a female member. I've often wondered, if that opinion would change if you knew the advice came from a female or male. For the majority, I think not. For others, whom may belong to an old school of thought - it may.

I have attended conventions and aprox 60 lectures for a number of years and never found it to be uncomfortable.If my presence bothered anyone..the problem would exist with them and not me.(Shrugs at this point) I am there on behalf of my craft. I chat with the teens, seniors, women, and men, and don't see age or gender to be an issue as we all share the same interest.

My magic ring has a membership of 120 magicians and while male members outnumber the females, the last two terms a female member headed the office of president. We are an extremely friendly group and those showing an interest in magic are made to feel welcome. That's the way it should be, regardless of age, race or gender.

Travelling the world and having an opportunity to meet other magicians in various countries, I've also never found gender to be an issue. When the opportunity arose I introduced myself as a fellow magician and always felt an immediate comeraderie existed.

While I've never had delusions of grandeur (seriously!) and am not that well known in the magic world ( waves to biggest fan, Vinnie) I have worked steadily for 17 years. Not once in the thousands of shows I've done, have I ever heard anyone say only magicians were men. Perhaps they did out of earshot, so of course I wouldn't be aware of it. To my face however, people have always been kind and respectful.

Repeating myself for the umpteenth time, I personally feel it is only a matter of time that the numbers will be equal. Today's young girls now have many female role models that will encourage them to pursue magic if they show an interest.

So after this long ramble, nope, being a minority in magic has never fazed me. I perform magic because I love it.

Chrystal :O)
tommy
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I don’t know if you’re saying there is a problem of sexism in the fraternity or not. On the one hand you say you have not experienced any but on the other you say the old school of thought causes women here at the café to hide their gender. Are you saying things have changed and are changing for the better as far as lady magicians are concerned. The bad old days are now behind us so to speak. As a card Guy/Person can I expect to find a few card tricks in my books that are credited to a lady because at the moment I can’t seen to find any? Yet I am informed that women today are getting 25% of the new patents each year and that is expected to rise to 50% over next ten years.
I think nothing would help the prestige of women more in the eyes of the fraternity for wowmen than to get credit for inventing effects or sleights. Men who would use these effects and moves would then be grabbed by the throat by logic and be forced to accept that women make a valuable contributions to magic.
There have been many women writers who have published work under a manes name due to sexism, now am I wondering if that has ever happened in magic?

There are many reasons that there are fewer women in magic. Many of which have been mentioned and all have a grain of truth in them in explaining why. Not many offer any solutions or think they should but we should try to help each other if there is a problem. Even if we think that women are not as good as men magicians we should still try and help. I mean it is not them and us it is just us or should be. However I think competition is a good thing amongst magicians but should not be men against the women but Magician V Magician. A competition on who can do the best bottom deal will result in better bottom dealing. Thinking about it without a doubt women have the best bottoms in my opinion.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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[Good for you. Smile Smile


Posted: Jun 2, 2006 7:44am
-----------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-06-02 06:08, tommy wrote:

I don’t know if you’re saying there is a problem of sexism in the fraternity or not. On the one hand you say you have not experienced any but on the other you say the old school of thought causes women here at the café to hide their gender.

It's possible for women to have an "old school of thought" too, maybe. Smile
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