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tommy
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Anything is possible with magic. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2006-06-03 03:28, tommy wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 13:42, Margarette wrote:
I have been ignored at dealer's tables (not just in magic, I've had this happen at gun shows).



When a guy is asked to name the best with a gun, not many would think of saying Annie Oakley. However Annie's feats with a gun put all men to shame. Yet it seems even gun dealers still think it is a mans thing.

http://www.rnh.com/org/index.php?page=bi......n_id=267



Well, overall, it *is* a man's thing, isn't it? Not by nature, but by choice and environment.

One shining example (Annie Oakley) doesn't mean that a men don't purchase/participate in much greater numbers than women. The Three Stooges are a man's thing - I once knew a girl who LOVED them, but that didn't change the fact that men love the stooges in FAR greater numbers (and buy MUCH more Stooges stuff) than women.

Now, I am not a gun sportsman, and correct me if I am wrong, but isn't hunting target shooting, etc... still mostly men? Of course, women do it, too, no argument there, but we are not talking about whether women shoot or not (or do magic or not), we are talking about in what numbers they shoot compared with men (or do magic compared with men).

The dealers in magic and guns who ignored Margarette, while missing potential sales, were either simply prejudiced, or they have been in the business for a long time, knew that the great majority of their sales came from men, and as people normally do, focused their energies in the direction most likely to redult in sales.

That does not excuse rude behavior, however.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-06-03 14:08, Chessmann wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-03 03:28, tommy wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-01 13:42, Margarette wrote:
I have been ignored at dealer's tables (not just in magic, I've had this happen at gun shows).



When a guy is asked to name the best with a gun, not many would think of saying Annie Oakley. However Annie's feats with a gun put all men to shame. Yet it seems even gun dealers still think it is a mans thing.

http://www.rnh.com/org/index.php?page=bi......n_id=267



Well, overall, it *is* a man's thing, isn't it? Not by nature, but by choice and environment.

One shining example (Annie Oakley) doesn't mean that a men don't purchase/participate in much greater numbers than women. The Three Stooges are a man's thing - I once knew a girl who LOVED them, but that didn't change the fact that men love the stooges in FAR greater numbers (and buy MUCH more Stooges stuff) than women.

Now, I am not a gun sportsman, and correct me if I am wrong, but isn't hunting target shooting, etc... still mostly men? Of course, women do it, too, no argument there, but we are not talking about whether women shoot or not (or do magic or not), we are talking about in what numbers they shoot compared with men (or do magic compared with men).

The dealers in magic and guns who ignored Margarette, while missing potential sales, were either simply prejudiced, or they have been in the business for a long time, knew that the great majority of their sales came from men, and as people normally do, focused their energies in the direction most likely to redult in sales.

That does not excuse rude behavior, however.



Concur completely.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Hostile18
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OK, I think I'll try this once more before giving up on the idea of magicfish managing to understand an idea that isn't his own. Apologies to those who couldn't care less.

You made a distinction between what Blackstone could do and what 'a woman' could do. The defining characteristic of Blackstone in this example is that he is a man. This implies that however good a woman is she will never be as good as the best men (for example Blackstone.) Language works through implicature as well as through direct assertion. Whether you meant to or not you suggested, as I claimed, that a woman can not hold an audience as well the best men can. I'm simply trying to point out that I don't agree with this. I hope you can understand this.

And I know myopic was my word, I remember using it. I was observing your odd fixation on it.

Also, the fact that you prefer watching men doesn't mean everyone else will. Roll with the changes.
Turk
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Quote:
On 2006-05-23 04:47, dpe666 wrote:

***

I often hear women complain that magic is a "male-dominated-art". My opinion on that is: so what? *** Why is it that the fact that magic is "male-dominated" such a bad thing? Smile


Just to expose my naivte:

In this day and age, the purchase of magic and the ability to learn magic is freely open to anyone of any sexual persuasion or sexual orientation. And anyone can join a magic club and perform magic. There are a number of female magicians here on the Café and they are most welcomed. Are there any less a number because such women have been excluded?

Alternatively, are there perhaps less female magicians because magic and the performance of magic does not "light the fire" of most women and that there are other things that interest them and appeal to them more than magic does? If so, is this a socieital in-bred thing (like boys play with guns and fire trucks and girls play with dolls) or is there something "hard-wired" into men versus women that makes magic more appealiing to men (as a class) than it does to women (as a class)?

There are lots of things that women (as a class) seem to enjoy more than men do, and, consequently, more women than men are engaged in those activities. Alternatively, there are many things that men (as a class) seem to enjoy more than men do, and, consequently, more men than women are engaged in those activities.

So, to answer dpe666's question ("Why is it that the fact that magic is "male-dominated" such a bad thing?"), maybe it is not a "bad thing"; maybe it is just, for whatever reason, a "fact" of life.

I have no problem with women magicians. Nothing seemed more natural to me than watching Diana the Enchantress. I never gave it a second thought nor had any thoughts such as: "Holy Cow!! What is she doing out there doing a "man's" job!! How unnatural is that!!??" I just assumed that she was out there performing because she enjoyed magic and wanted to make it a career. Likewise, I have always assumed that the magic field is open to women and that those women that want to seek a career in magic (and that will put in the hard work and dedication that it will take to be successful) will do so and those that don't, won't.

See, I told you I'd expose my naivte.

Mike
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This must not be Kansas anymore, Toto.

Eschew obfuscation.
tommy
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Mark

There are more men in magic than women and so dealers being business men target men who are at the dealers stand because they are more likely to make a sale to a man you say. However the fact that the women is at the dealers stand should tell the dealer she is equally interested as any man there. If you had a magic shop and if a women came into the shop and started looking around and then a man came in and stated browsing would you go to the man first and say can I help you sir. If you did, how would that make the women feel. Each person counts as one. A man does not count as two because there are twice as many men in magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
Chessmann
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Tommy, I don't think you read my post carefully, as I agreed with most of what you just wrote. There is no disagreement on how rude behavior might make someone feel, as I mentioned in my post (!).

However, being at a dealer's stand doesn't equate to equal interest. One person can be interested in buying, the other only looking. The dealer doesn't know with certainty which is which, and so may be going with what he/she sees as the best odds. Or he just doesn't like women at his magic/gun booth, or....

A man doesn't necessarily count as 2, but looked at from a business standpoint, someone whose livelyhood depends on sales cannot always afford to spend too much time trying to sell to the wrong demographic. Rather, he/she must spend their energy in the areas most likely to bring sales success.

But again, that can almost always be accomplished without being rude or ignoring someone in one-on-one situations.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
Margarette
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Quote:
On 2006-06-03 10:45, magicalaurie wrote:
Spooked 'em, perhaps. Smile Scary thing- a woman knowing what she's talking about. Who knew that was POSSIBLE? Smile


Can you imagine the look on my boss's face when, in an attempt to explain about jail locks, I pipe in, "Oh, so it's a Folger-Adams or similar brand?"

Margarette
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kregg
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Or when your boss asks, "Have you seen my keys?"
POOF!
Whit Haydn
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Quote:
On 2006-06-07 12:43, magicfish wrote:
Whit, I'm saddened that you feel the need to compare the disproportionate numbers of males to females in magic to racism.

I've been a professional magician for 20 years to answer one of your questions.

I have no prejudices thank you.

I have seen met and befriended many excellent female magical performers.

perhaps you should re-read some of Chessman's posts. You obviously are plugging your ears and stamping your feet on this topic.

Annie Duke is a great poker player. Is she one of the best? yes. is she the best? no.

Do many women like poker? yes. Do way way way way way way more men like poker? yes.

same thing with magic. boys like it better than girls. Don't be scared Whit, it's okay. We just darn-diddly-do. My sister played with dolls, I practiced magic. Why?
because as a boy I wanted to be an all-powerful wizard.

The image of that wizard in my head had a beard and a staff; not lipstick and a bra. Sorry, Whit, it's a guy thing... you wouldn't........well nevermind.


You are right, magicfish. I guess I was just never turned on by all powerful men as you obviously were... Smile

But perhaps if your sister had had Xena and other models to emulate, as young girls do now, she might very well have pictured a powerful magician in lipstick and bra.
magicfish
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Turned on? You've lost me ...

Anyway, I also liked race cars and sports and wrestling. Dr. Phil says thes are all things that boys naturally like.

Last time I checked, there were more male race car drivers than females................ ***ed irrational prejudiced race-car drivers!
Whit Haydn
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You assume a similarity when one may not exist. You equate distinctions of chemistry and biology with those of purely cultural origin.
magicfish
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Interesting but false.

Namibian boys hit each other with sticks and throw stones and wrestle at an early age; the girls usually invent some type of clapping game.

English boys run and jump over hedges. The girls play makebelieve.

I liked magic; my sister liked dolls and things that were pretty.

Cultural you say? hardly.
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I have read through all of the OPINIONS concerning this topic. I would like for some one to answer who made them the EVALUATOR of Magic for Males/Females. Magifish all you have stated are your OWN OPINIONS and that is it. It is time to grow up. Face it, there are many well gifted FEMALE Magicians, and yes they are in my OPINION better than Houdini, Thurston, Kaps, etc. We all have OPINIONS and that is all we have. To say that one is right or wrong no one can attest to that. If we were to have a major compitition in magic where the equal number of men/females competed who would win? There is no answer because of BIASED OPINIONS. Ladies/Gentlemen we are in this together we are all EQUAL no matter what if we strive to be the best and are on equal grounds with our acts (malnipulation, cards, stage, close-up)etc. whose is to say whom is better. ANSWER: (NO ONE) Let this topic VANISH we should all respect one another as performers and that should be it. This is how children act, mine is better than yours and so on. It should be stated WOMEN MAGICIANS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANY MALE MAGICIAN AS LONG AS EQUAL AMOUNTS OF PRACTICE ARE PUT INTO PLAY. But this is only my OPINION and yes we all have OPINIONS. As a matter of fact that is all we have are OPINIONS.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-06-07 15:00, First Class Magician wrote:
I have read through all of the OPINIONS concerning this topic. I would like for some one to answer who made them the EVALUATOR of Magic for Males/Females. Magifish all you have stated are your OWN OPINIONS and that is it. It is time to grow up. Face it, there are many well gifted FEMALE Magicians, and yes they are in my OPINION better than Houdini, Thurston, Kaps, etc. We all have OPINIONS and that is all we have. To say that one is right or wrong no one can attest to that. If we were to have a major compitition in magic where the equal number of men/females competed who would win? There is no answer because of BIASED OPINIONS. Ladies/Gentlemen we are in this together we are all EQUAL no matter what if we strive to be the best and are on equal grounds with our acts (malnipulation, cards, stage, close-up)etc. whose is to say whom is better. ANSWER: (NO ONE) Let this topic VANISH we should all respect one another as performers and that should be it. This is how children act, mine is better than yours and so on. It should be stated WOMEN MAGICIANS ARE JUST AS GOOD AS ANY MALE MAGICIAN AS LONG AS EQUAL AMOUNTS OF PRACTICE ARE PUT INTO PLAY. But this is only my OPINION and yes we all have OPINIONS. As a matter of fact that is all we have are OPINIONS.




Well, something like this was bound to happy. As long as we all get to have opinions, here's one: The above post is just silly. Some magicians are better than other magicians. That's how we as magicians choose whom to emulate. That's why we cringe when watching some performers (hopefully not outwardly), while we vote others as "Best close-up magician." That's why FISM exists. That's why The Magic Castle has annual awards. FISM doesn't result in a 20-million way tie between everyone who practices magic. And that's the way it SHOULD be. Because if all magicians are inherently equal, then it would follow that magician X in 2006 is no better or worse than he was in 2005 or will be in 2007; that is to say, there is no room for improvement. Really, "good" and "bad," or "better" or "worse" would cease to have any meaning whatsoever. Sorry, but I know that Dai Vernon was an above-average magician (if I may make an understatement). And, from that, it DOES follow that some magicians are better than others. Denying that out of some desire for political correctness, or because we don't want to hurt anyone's feelings is possible, but it doesn't mean it's accurate. The fact that the measures are subjective don't mean they're not valid. It's not as simple as, "If two people put in the same amount of practice, they're equal." Some people practice a whole lot without getting a whole lot better. Others get good in a relatively short period of time.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On 2006-06-07 12:43, magicfish wrote:

Annie Duke is a great poker player. Is she one of the best? yes. is she the best? no.




It's possible that a woman will one day be regarded (by people who are right) as the best magician ever. Nobody, male or female, will ever replace Stu Ungar as the greatest poker player in history. And poker wasn't even his best game, amazingly.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Jonathan Townsend
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What is a stu ungar? and why would "never" apply to his accomplishments?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
kregg
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Quote:
On 2006-06-07 15:00, First Class Magician wrote:
Magifish all you have stated are your OWN OPINIONS and that is it.


Whew! For a minute there I thought he was stating someone else's opinion or a known fact.
POOF!
Jonathan Townsend
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Quote:
On 2006-06-07 15:49, kregg wrote:
Quote:
On 2006-06-07 15:00, First Class Magician wrote:
Magifish all you have stated are your OWN OPINIONS and that is it.


Whew! For a minute there I thought he was stating someone else's opinion or a known fact.


That would be in the mentalism section or in "not very magical still" for the fact stuff.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Here is an analogy, using a different area:

For a long time during the 20th century, the Soviet Union had a stranglehold on the world chess crown. People called foul, cheating, collusion. There was some jealousy, as well.

When the communists came to power, one thing they did was to make chess a very important aspect of Soviet sport. They poured money into it. The best players were, for their standards, well off financially, and enjoyed freedoms other Soviet citizens could only dream about. The Soviet Union put a lot of emphasis on this.

The best explanation as to why the Soviets had a stanglehold on world chess was that they created an atmosphere in which their huge country actively sought out the best talent, and trained it. In America, there is a fairly strong attitude that chess was/is for nerds. By just the weight of their numbers it was virtually assured that a Soviet would retain the title, particulary since the process of becoming the challenger, and defeating all of the great Soviet players in the process, was a long, arduous process.

Then, in 1972, an almost self-trained American named Bobby Fischer took the title. It was an amazing, historic feat. If you remember that year, you remember how this captivated the country - the lead up to the match, and the match itself received unprecedented coverage.

But what has happened after Fischer? The title, and the best players in the world since that time until now, have come from the east. Yes, there are scattered Americans, but *very few* of them have been called serious challengers.

In our conversation, regarding magic, the Soviets are the men. Bobby Fischer is the woman / women.

The sheer weight of numbers of women vs. men desiring to go into magic almost assures that the more magicians will be men than women.

This *may* also mean that it is easier for a man to have financial success as a magician than women because of a possible "the public likes men magicians better" type of attitude, which, by the way, I have no idea exists.

That does not mean that a woman (a Bobby Fischer) with sufficient skill, promotion, charisma, etc.... cannot skyrocket to the top of the profession. It is entirely possible!

Are Americans genetically challenged in chess? No, of course not. Years ago, America probably looked genetically challenged in soccer - now we are (I think) #10 in the world because we created an atmosphere that was conducive to spotting talent, training, etc....

Are women genetically challenged in chess? No way. Can a woman became the unofficial "greatest magician in the world", becoming a type of Bobby Fischer? Yes.

Could women, in general, become as successful and well-known as men in magic? Yes, but the numbers simply make it less likely to happen.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
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