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Bill Palmer
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Part of the bias in IQ tests comes from certain misconceptions people have about ethnicity as a basis for intelligence. For example, I seriously doubt that either of the two "noted professors" ever tested African Americans for intelligence, unless they took the same tests they use over to America to administer them. There are relatively few African Americans in the UK. There are many British of African Descent in the UK, though. Why do I make this distinction? Because the cultures are so different.

The versions of the various IQ tests I have taken over the years have had questions that definitely had a cultural bias to them.

"If Maynard sails his 60 foot yacht 200 nautical miles against a current of 12 knots and Biff sails his 55 foot yacht with the current for the same distance, where will they meet?

A) Cape Cod
B) Mogadishu
C) Austin
D) In the showers of the locker room at the yacht club."

The difficulties of administering a culturally neutral set of IQ tests to a group of say, 200 African-Americans and 200 Sub-saharan Africans are almost insurmountable. Trying to translate some of the questions from one language into the other would be really difficult.

You see three small, round, dark brown lumps of spoor on the trail. They are about as big as your thumb. They came from

A) A goat
B) A chimpanzee
C) An Ooh Ahh bird
D) A python.

or

You pay a case sawbuck for half a hit of X. When will you wake up?

A) When your old lady slaps you on the behind
B) When MY old lady slaps you on the behind
C) When the cops break up the party
D) None of the above. Cheap X will kill you.

There are some in the Asian community who think that the idea of the extreme intelligence of Eastern Asians is a racial stereotype that has hurt their standing in the community. So, yes, it is bigotry.
"The Swatter"

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magicfish
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I almost miss Haydn.
Chessmann
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Quote:
On 2006-09-18 17:00, magicfish wrote:
Is this about princess Tenko?


I thought it was about the person who did the IQ rating definitions, but there was not enough there for one unfamiliar with that particular subject to know for sure.
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
IT Magic
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Just finished reading ALL 13 pages, like most things, I think magic was shaped by social trends from years past, and back then women DID NOT have many choices. If you refuse to allow any group to do something for years, then when they do it you claim they are inferior at it. Very odd.

Fish, you actually sound really sexist and seem to believe that men are actually better "designed" for magic. I think there are a myriad of reasons there are so few women in magic (compared to men) but inability is NOT one of them. Perhaps you are just being Myopic.

I have really enjoyed most of this discussion but there are certainly some fossils here that obviously still subscribe to outdated ideas of men and women.

As for the "best", I find that some of those most lauded as the greats bore me to tears, oh yeh more card manipulation. The one thing I can give to the female magi from my own experience is this:

"I have never seen a cliched boring magic act from a woman, I have seen plenty from men"

Just my opinion based on my experiences only!

Macros
Magic, Illusion and Data Management
www.stardockmagi.blogspot.com

I picture a world of love and peace, a world without war where people live together in harmony.
I also picture us attacking that world 'cause they just wouldn't expect it
Chessmann
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Macros,

You did everything but refute Magicfish's position. You made some insinutations and and threw out a couple of names, and mentioned the social issues, but that is about it. Your statment that you have not seen a boring act from a woman but plenty from men doesn't really mean a great deal without the story behind your experience - how many acts have you seen, what was the ratio of men to women in these acts, how many of each were professional, etc....

It is easy to say that the other side is a fossil, sexist, myopic, etc.... It is another to say, "You are incorrect, and here are the specific reasons why women are every bit as capable as men to become top magicians across the board - technically, promotionally, in showmanship, general audience appeal, etc....

On another note, you deserve some applause you for reading all 13 pages, attempting to follow all of the twists and turns!

Mark
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
tommy
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I don’t know if any one has mentioned this but men do try to impress women and some use magic to do so.
This simple truth is probably the main reason more men do magic than women.
It don’t work, which is probably why we don’t attract many women to the café. Smile
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
dxsare
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Wow, what a topic. I see nothing wrong with a woman being a magician, in fact it doesn't even phaze me when I see one (although Melinda was kinda lame). I just believe men are more interested to take action to become a magician than most women. It's like riding a harley, or rebuilding a nice kit car, sure there are women that do this stuff, but more men seem to be interested in these areas just as there are many areas that most women like to invest their time in that men don't find interesting. I say this in the least stereotypical manner possible. Men and Women are just different, and it has nothing to do with skill or ability. This brings me to another point. I was invited to a friend's house for a special occasion and he had a fabolous magical act that starred two gay men. Not only were they funny as hell, but they brought quite a few illusions and it was different to see a man me the "assistant" in the show. Of course some of the things they were doing were amazing because they were both amazing magicians. The world is changing, and people please feel free to do anything that YOU enjoy, and not be limited to something being male or female oriented.

Stevie D
-Stevie D
Bill Palmer
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Quote:
On 2006-09-22 22:01, IT Magic wrote:

"I have never seen a cliched boring magic act from a woman, I have seen plenty from men"

Just my opinion based on my experiences only!

Macros


I agree up to a point. I have never seen a cliched boring professional magic act from a woman. But I have seen some amateur ones that were really bad. This was not because they were women. It was because they were not good entertainers.

Gender does not make one creative or entertaining.
"The Swatter"

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My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
sepaternoster
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I still feel like a fortune cookie. Smile
Seth E. Paternoster
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[quote]On 2006-09-23 01:01, Bill Palmer wrote:

"Gender does not make one creative or entertaining."

That explains why so many men are megalomaniacs!
POOF!
Beth
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Quote:
On 2006-09-16 14:10, tommy wrote:
Research based on IQ tests given to 80,000 people and a further study of 20,000 students proved men are smarter than women by about 5 points on average. Which is small but the gap gets wider among the smartest men and women.
If magic is an intellectual pursuit then men will do better.
The history of magic speaks for itself and so it will in the future.


It is a misnomer in my opinion to look at research of IQ differences in gender as proof that men are more intelligent than women. This is a multifaceted problem with so many influences and variables that to make such a blanket statement oversimplifies the problem. What it has shown, rather, is that males "test" on average 5 points higher than females.

Let's look at some of the reasons for this possible difference in IQ scores. One possibility is of course gender biased testing, as I believe has already been mentioned here on the board. However, I believe it goes deeper than that. There is an inherent bias deeply ingrained in the very core of our educational system where girls are receiving a much different education than boys. This is of course a microcosm of our society.

To begin, the very text books used in our educational system have been found to be gender biased against females. Researchers at a 1990 conference reported that even texts designed to fit within the current guidelines on gender and race equity for textbook adoption showed subtle language bias, neglect of scholarship on women, omission of women as developers of history and initiators of events, and absence of women from accounts of technological developments. (Bailey, 1992) All this I believe creates an inequitable system of education for girls.


Also, leading gender researcher David Saker found that boys were given more learning opportunities in our educational system. They were far more likely to receive praise or remediation from a teacher than were girls. The girls were most likely to receive an acknowledgement response from their teacher. (Sadker, 1994) These findings are confirmed by a 1990 study by Good and Brophy that "...noted that teachers give boys greater opportunity to expand ideas and be animated than they do girls and that they reinforce boys more for general responses than they do for girls." (Marshall, 1997)


Now one might argue that IQ measures intelligence rather than knowledge, and that IQ will stay the same regardless of education or inequitable practices within it. This is not true. From one who has worked with special needs students, I have seen again and again that IQ scores are affected by numerous things. Bluntly stated, something as simple as a child not having breakfast that morning will affect the IQ score tested for that child. How much more does the multifaceted inequitable system of education for girls affect their scores? I think a great deal.

I have seen IQ scores change. Now that is not suppose to happen. IQ scores should remain relatively the same throughout life, but in my own experience, that is not the case. For example I have seen numerous children test as borderline retarded on IQ test. They are then placed in Special Ed services and given intensive one on one services. A few years later, when re tested their IQs no longer show an IQ lag and they are placed out of Special Ed services into the regular classroom. Did their IQs improve? NO the test however failed to give a true measure of their real IQ. My point in this is that IQ test are unreliable measures of intelligence.
Peace Beth
"All creative art is magic, is evocation of the unseen in forms persuasive,enlightening, familar, and surprising."
tommy
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If you look a little further down the page Beth you will see I agree.

I also agree with what this guy is saying:

http://neptune.spaceports.com/~words/malelogic.html
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicfish
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Quote:
On 2006-09-16 20:52, magicfish wrote:
Nothing to do with world leaders or anything other than magic, Whit.

I disagree with your "societal pressures" theory all together.

I am an avid angler. When I walk by a family with my rod under my arm and a flashy spinnerbait tied to my line, it is invariably the boy who almost breaks his neck looking at my new lure. The girl usually is interested in something different. I don't think this is because the boy has already been exposed to fishing by a male role model or it wouldn't happen so often.

Growing up my sister and I were trapped in a car with my mom and dad on camping trips fishing outings...we did everything together for about 15 years. I naturally leaned toward fishing and camping and cars and chopping wood and building things and juggling and magic. My sister{ for some reason } tended to lean toward hop scotch, skipping, pussy willows, and dressing up dolls; and believe me, she was under no pressure to do so.

I'd like to go way, way way out on a limb here and bet 8 zillion dollars that more boys ask for magic sets than girls next year... and the next and for the next oh I don't know 700 years?

So too will they ask for more dinky cars and building blocks.

Men and women most certainly should be treated as equals, but in no way are they the same. Nature made it that way.

miistermagico
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See: Mismeasure of Woman by Carol Tavris
The Longest War by Carol Tavris and Carole Wade
Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me) by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson
danaruns
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Well, Miistermagico, thanks for dragging this piece of trash up from the deep. After reading this, I feel like I need to take a shower to get the sexist stink off of me. At least now I know who some of the true sexists here are (magicfish, tommy) and who some of the gems are (my dear friend Whit Haydn, now Pop Haydn). It was very enlightening to see how unenlightened a number of men here are.

It's now 2017, 11 years after this thread, and we still have the same problems. I note that at MAGIC Live! last month, they opened with a talk about how important it is to be more woman inclusive in magic...and then they didn't have a single female performer all week. Not one.

Up until 1991 the Magic Circle would not admit women. That's only 15 years before this thread. The previously mentioned Magic Castle has a membership of 5,000 or so. Only about 3% are female magicians. Less than a hundred years ago, in 1921, "Sawing a Woman in Half" was a misogynistic act, specifically designed as a backlash against women for women fighting for the right to vote. Men cheered louder when she was sawed in half than when she was restored. In my lifetime, right here in America, women couldn't have their own credit, or own property without their husband, and were discourage from working in any job at all, except for certain "acceptable" jobs (nurse, secretary, etc.), and magician wasn't one of them.

Of ALL the arts, magic still lags the farthest behind in attitudes and inclusion, and much of it is on display in this thread. I wonder if the sexists and misogynists in this thread believe differently today? Probably not. Still, the first thing men observe about a female magician is her looks rather than her talent.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
miistermagico
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Dear Danaruns,
"Less than a hundred years ago, in 1921, "Sawing a Woman in Half" was a misogynistic act, specifically designed as a backlash against women for women fighting for the right to vote. Men cheered louder when she was sawed in half than when she was restored." I hope you are mistaken. That's creepy!
magicfish
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2017, danaruns wrote:
Well, Miistermagico, thanks for dragging this piece of trash up from the deep. After reading this, I feel like I need to take a shower to get the sexist stink off of me. At least now I know who some of the true sexists here are (magicfish, tommy) and who some of the gems are (my dear friend Whit Haydn, now Pop Haydn). It was very enlightening to see how unenlightened a number of men here are.

It's now 2017, 11 years after this thread, and we still have the same problems. I note that at MAGIC Live! last month, they opened with a talk about how important it is to be more woman inclusive in magic...and then they didn't have a single female performer all week. Not one.

Up until 1991 the Magic Circle would not admit women. That's only 15 years before this thread. The previously mentioned Magic Castle has a membership of 5,000 or so. Only about 3% are female magicians. Less than a hundred years ago, in 1921, "Sawing a Woman in Half" was a misogynistic act, specifically designed as a backlash against women for women fighting for the right to vote. Men cheered louder when she was sawed in half than when she was restored. In my lifetime, right here in America, women couldn't have their own credit, or own property without their husband, and were discourage from working in any job at all, except for certain "acceptable" jobs (nurse, secretary, etc.), and magician wasn't one of them.

Of ALL the arts, magic still lags the farthest behind in attitudes and inclusion, and much of it is on display in this thread. I wonder if the sexists and misogynists in this thread believe differently today? Probably not. Still, the first thing men observe about a female magician is her looks rather than her talent.

I am far from a sexist.
And misogyny is beyond horrific- a term that shouldn't be used lightly. Especially 11 years later when stone aged religious fanatics are systemically enslaving and torturing women.
I sincerely hope there are/were no misogynists on this thread nor on this forum.
danaruns
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Quote:
On Sep 2, 2017, miistermagico wrote:
Dear Danaruns,
"Less than a hundred years ago, in 1921, "Sawing a Woman in Half" was a misogynistic act, specifically designed as a backlash against women for women fighting for the right to vote. Men cheered louder when she was sawed in half than when she was restored." I hope you are mistaken. That's creepy!


Wish I were mistaken.

There is a great piece by a friend of mine, Angela Sanchez, an L.A. magician and magic historian, where she goes into the history of sawing a woman in half. You can find it here: https://angelamsanchezdotcom.files.wordp......2013.pdf I found the whole piece super interesting. Angela is a founder of the Women Magicians Association (of which I'm currently on the Board of Directors), and is a wonderful magic historian who did her graduate thesis at UCLA on women in magic. The link is a tour de force on women magicians in the 19th and 20th centuries.

If you want shorter, lighter reading about it, there are quick descriptions here: http://www.marianotomatis.it/scifoo14/?post=20140611 and here: http://www.bkmag.com/2015/06/12/how-sawi......c-trick/
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
miistermagico
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Suzanne is the only woman magician to win the coveted "Close-Up Magician of the Year" award from the Academy of Magical Arts
David Copperfield Laser Illusion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEIohvuBSK8
Another David Copperfield Illusion with Catherine Bach https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxKwkH6KMPk
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One vote for Mary Mowder.
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