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Intrepid
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The cool thing about magic is that it can be pursued by anyone that has the desire to do so.
Bob
The Hermit
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I apologize for not reading all the pages. Did anyone discuss the idea that magic appeals to boys because male society is more aggressive and there is the need to get over one or another?. Magic is the idea that you can have a secret power that others don't have. The reason magic appealed to the nerd of yesteryear. He needed a psychological satisfaction to cope with domination behavior that he couldn't address with brute force. Girls don't really have that as part of their culture. Hence, more boys than girls as magicians. Magic is something you tend to do alone and boys (esp. nerds) are often more suited to that vs girls which tend to be more social.
WitchDocChris
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I think it's also that those boys tend to group together and form a sort of safe space together.

When females try to enter that space, the response is often either creepy behavior (a la Howard in Big Bang Theory) or defensive lashing out.

I can completely understand why females don't want to engage with that. Who would? I'm often disgusted by the behavior I see. This is why I often emphasize learning social skills to new magicians.
Christopher
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danaruns
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In Asia, female magicians are a little more than half of all magicians. So to say it's inherently a guy thing and that magic doesn't appeal to women and girls is just plain wrong.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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I have found when people make all encompassing statements like magic not appealing to women, or people don't like card tricks that often it speaks more to the experience of the person making the statement, and less about what is being stated.

Also the idea that girls don't have to "get over" in each other in my experience is absolutely 180 degrees different from my experience.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
funsway
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old things in new ways - new things in old ways
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Quote:
On Oct 26, 2017, The Hermit wrote:
I apologize for not reading all the pages. Did anyone discuss the idea that magic appeals to boys because male society is more aggressive and there is the need to get over one or another?. Magic is the idea that you can have a secret power that others don't have. The reason magic appealed to the nerd of yesteryear. He needed a psychological satisfaction to cope with domination behavior that he couldn't address with brute force. Girls don't really have that as part of their culture. Hence, more boys than girls as magicians. Magic is something you tend to do alone and boys (esp. nerds) are often more suited to that vs girls which tend to be more social.


I just came across this ...

I won't argue, but do wish to say that I disagree with every single line of this opinion. It is difficult for me to imagine an upbringing or set of experiences that would lead a person to these conclusions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Bill Hallahan
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Funsway, I have no idea if The Hermit is right or not, but if you read psychology books, there's plenty of evidence that boys are more aggressive than girls. Also, the book, "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus" tells how men tend to compete, and women tend to cooperate. So, his ideas are not "way out there."

Some psychology studies suggest that men tend to be more interested in things, and women tend to be more interested in people. I have to add a disclaimers that these are overall trends, and of course any individual man or woman might not fit these patterns.

I tend to ignore such studies and treat people as individuals. That's the only way to be fair.

However, such studies become relevant when considering trends.

Steve Brooks has also conjectured that some magicians start out as geeks trying to fit in with normal people. He might be onto something. See his post at: What's all the fuss about?

Whether The Hermit is right or not about why boys become interested in magic, some things he wrote are true.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
funsway
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Glad for the clarifications, Bill - but I still disagree, Yes, some psychology books discuss this theory, and offer such an opinions. I don't find that as "evidence" of anything beyond a desire to publish.
Just joking. We have to rely on the opinions of others as a measure of what people think - if one think that "trends" are relevant.

But, I never said his claims were "Way out there," only that I disagreed with them all. My experience leads to a different set of opinions. My readings and studies support different conclusions.

I guess my real objection is that these opinions are offered as universal facts rather than "his opinion." Yup, there many be some truth behind each claim, but no universal or common truth. I not your use of "some" -- big difference from a universal claim.

I hold to my last sentence and would expand on it. I find it difficult to imagine an upbringing or set of experiences that would lead ANY PERSON to accept these conclusions as common, valid, universal or even desirable. It may be a reality that many people will accept such thinking as more than just personal opinion. I don't have to like it or think it is reasonable.

I will even concede that "most" people seem to value an opinion of a stranger on FaceBook or tabloids over valid research or practical experience.
For me that is a statement about the decline of modern culture and not the truth of an idea. I guess I do not want to imagine a world in which ...

I like your sig line and new photo. Just opinions.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
danaruns
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People gloss over my post every time I post it, as if it's not even there, so they don't have to deal with it, I guess. So I'll ask it as a question:

If men are more attracted to magic than women are, why are just over HALF of magicians in Asia women?

That seems to be an inconvenient truth for many of the men in this thread. And Bill, I couldn't disagree with your post more. In fact, it's a bit offensive, though I'm sure you don't intend that. And what does competition have to do with magic? Nothing, from my end. I approach magic as a collaborative effort with my audience, as well as with other magicians. It's not a sport. It's an art. If you're competing, you're doing it wrong, IMHO.
"Dana Douglas is the greatest magician alive. Plus, I'm drunk." -- Foster Brooks
Dannydoyle
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I am fairly certain the idea of this thread is just an old paradigm that many have not chosen to try to look at in life.

As for "compete vs cooperate" why does anyone think the cosmetics industry is so vast? Just sayin'. If THAT is not about competition, specifically with other women, I don't know what is. Girls compete in sports as young people. No boy was ever more competitive than my niece at 9. She was absolutely driven to win.

My personal experience with women of the female persuasion is that not any of the paradigm is true. It is possible that it is just a function of the type of women I have chosen to associate with and those who are in my family. It is probably just a function of that more than a function of a universal truth.

In the 1950's, when this idea probably started, there were indeed very few performing magician women. But with progress comes progress. At the time there were probably fewer as a percentage of women doctors, lawyers, airline pilots, soldiers, and also probably fewer by percentage men who stayed home with kids.

With that the idea that the young girls are not really being exposed to the idea of magic as a performance art so it takes time to catch up to society. The idea that they don't "like" it is not quite accurate it is more that through societal influences they were not exposed to it. Sometimes when these things take time to catch up, we see disparity in what is societal norms and the actual numbers we witness personally. That is just time lag in the change in attitude being applied.

Danaruns is right about Asia.

I think the "competition" connection is more that some here think little boys use magic as a "I know something you don't know" thing. (Which explains why LOTS of really bad magic presentations exist!) But as I said little girls "compete" on the same level. Look at prom dresses vs prom tuxes. I guess it is easy to look around and find "proof" of almost anything one thinks.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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I didn't respond to your post specifically, Danaruns, because I had nothing to add to my previous point. I don't think magic is inherently masculine or feminine. I think the environment of the magic community is not terribly welcoming to women, though, and that is probably more of what keeps them from wanting to be part of it, outside of Asia apparently.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd
Dannydoyle
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Well not many magicians have social skills.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
WitchDocChris
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This is true.
Christopher
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Psycho Seance book: https://tinyurl.com/y873bbr4
Boffo eBook: https://tinyurl.com/387sxkcd
Dr. K
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Agreed.
Dr. K
Pop Haydn
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What is "typical" for a boy or girl is irrelevant. "Typical" boys don't get into magic, nor do "typical" girls.
George Ledo
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Ah, another old thread resuscitated.

I don't see what difference it makes that more women aren't involved in magic in the U.S. People get involved in stuff that interests them, not in what someone else thinks they should be involved in. For the past couple of years, a friend has been trying to get me involved in amateur radio, and I finally gave in and bought a cheapie. Read up on the subject, programmed a bunch of repeaters into the unit, blah blah blah. It's just not grabbing me, so I probably won't pursue it.

But, just out of curiosity after reading this thread, I looked up how many women are involved in amateur radio. Didn't see any actual statistics (aside from one from 1931, which said that there were 86 women out of 18,000 men), but the general consensus in chat rooms is that there are very few. People come up with all kinds of explanations and theories, (and finger-pointing) but one reason that doesn't seem very popular is that maybe they're just not interested.

I could ask why there aren't more men in this or that too. Right here in parts of CA, nail salons are a huge industry. The vast majority of employees are women. So why can't they get more men involved? Maybe they're just not interested?

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, only 12% of registered nurses were men in 2020. Why? Maybe a lack of interest in the profession?

Why didn't I become a doctor, lawyer, MBA, physicist, astronaut, actor, or computer programmer? No interest. Why aren't more people involved in the two career fields I chose, architecture and entertainment design? Or in my major long-time hobby, woodworking? I can come up with lots of theories and finger-pointing too. But in the end -- lack of interest.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
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tommy
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The scientific reason why women are more likely to believe in the supernatural

Oh, and ghosts, karma and fate too...

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/body/hea......e-magic/
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
licker98
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I hate these sorts of discussions because some people inevitably use them to push their politics. Frankly, if there's no oppressive force, such as a government ban on female magicians, or something ludicrous like that, then in this day and age where information is so easily available on the Internet, then there is no reason why a woman can't become just as proficient as men in magic. If a woman believes that she would be discriminated against in a magic society, and then doesn't even join a club, then I'd say she's being irrational and should join regardless.

Here's something interesting from the history of the magic club I belong to:

"1912
1st Lady Member
On Thursday 8th February, the first AGM was held in the studios of George Applin, and Laurence Spitari was duly elected President. But it is also noted that the first lady member was accepted. She was Dorothy Baldwin, better known as Maidie Wynne. Apart from typing and duplicating the magazine, she was also an accomplished entertainer at the piano and dance teacher/assistant to Spitari, especially in his 'thought rteading' act. She later became Spitari's wife in 1916."

"1913
...The office of Vice President was to be shared jointly by Bro A.T Hay and Sister Maidie Wynne. The latter to look after the interest of the several lady members..."
George Ledo
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There's no reason why either a woman or a man can't become proficient in magic, as long as they're interested in it and are willing to work at it.
That's our departed buddy Burt, aka The Great Burtini, doing his famous Cups and Mice routine
www.georgefledo.net

Latest column: "Sorry about the photos in my posts here"
wwhokie1
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Quote:
On Feb 6, 2022, Pop Haydn wrote:
What is "typical" for a boy or girl is irrelevant. "Typical" boys don't get into magic, nor do "typical" girls.


Many things that are "typical" of a boy or girl will vary by culture. People typically gravitate to cultures definitions. Unfortunately, culture has labeled magicians as male. That is changing but far too slowly. I can't help but wonder what the magic community has missed out on because many women who would have become incredible magicians were discouraged from considering the option because of the restraints of culture. Erase a handful of impactful magicians and their contributions, and then realize if those people were female they would have never made those contributions and we would have missed out. In fact we have missed out on all the contributions women did not make, because "typical" thinking did not embrace them as magicians. I agree with Pop, magicians tend to not be typical people. We rebel against the "typical", we try to perform the impossible, and we seek to help people escape from reality to the realm of imagination and amazement. Typical is contrary to magical. The only thing holding women back from becoming magicians is "typical" thinking and that type of thinking is the enemy of creativity.
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