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kregg
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On 2006-05-30 17:51, bishthemagish wrote:
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On 2006-05-30 17:24, kregg wrote:
With all due respect, what magician has reach[ed} the notoriety of Houdini?

Sorry to not agree with you all about Houdini but Houdini's name was promoted by Bess Houdini and Edward Saint after Houdini's death. And they promoted it to George Pal in order to make a movie about Houdini.

Plus Bess Houdini and Edward Saint promoted and made money of a lecture tour after Houdini's death that included a short Houdini séance. Houdini's name has been used to promote magic more after his death than when he was alive.

Much of the business of the Houdini promotion I heard from Anne Gwynne. Who was a close friend of Bess Houdini and Edward Saint. Magic is a business and part of the business is the art of promotion. Houdini IS remembered because he was promoted - not for his greatness of doing magic and not because he did escapes. It is because he was great at getting his name in the papers.

And after he died his wife continued to promote the name, Houdini.


Interesting history, but, I was looking for a vowel.

I chose the word notoriety over famous, popular or great; perhaps too covert for the sake of our discussion.

Other than that, magic sure has had it's share of what's his names.

Kregg
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bishthemagish
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On 2006-05-30 17:41, bishthemagish wrote:
But who is the best? Who cares. Just something magicians like to argue over.

On 2006-05-30 17:53, magicalaurie wrote:
I agree with your sentiment, Glenn. The "best" is relative.
I, for one, have no problem with a MAN being the best. It's NOT a battle of the sexes at all for me. I'm not worried about beating the men to the top. I'm worrying about my own backyard and no one else's, really. We'll see where that takes me.

Thanks I think you have a great attitude toward magic magicalaurie it is interesting how magicians argue about who is better or the best. Few take into consideration the promotion and public relation people that are a big part of show business.

I remember when FOX did the masked magician special and took an unknown magician and then in the promotion of this first special promoted the guy as one of the 10 of the 10 worlds greatest magicians. Then when the mask came off the public went - Who? Because it was a second rate dove worker that no one heard of.

Better and best is a promotion tool - that’s all.

Is burger king better than McDonalds? Hardies better than white castle? How about Pizza? Who makes the best Pizza?

Just a point of view and an opinion unless it is part of advertising and promotion.


Posted: May 30, 2006 7:31pm
---------------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-05-30 19:14, kregg wrote:
Interesting history, but, I was looking for a vowel.

I chose the word notoriety over famous, popular or great; perhaps too covert for the sake of our discussion.

Other than that, magic sure has had it's share of what's his names.

Kregg

I choose the word promoted because the Houdini name was promoted first by him. Then his wife and Edward Saint, then by a movie, magicians, books, and TV. How much his name was promoted here in the USA is often forgotten by most people.

Even John Calvert promoted his show as a Tribute to Houdini here in the USA. In Mexico or Spain it was promoted as a Tribute to Fu Manchu.

Magic does have it's share of what’s his names but so does sports, Movies, music, art, dance and every other performing art. The public would forget Houdini when magicians stop promoting him.

Hardeen who was Houdini's brother was a better magician and a nicer guy and a better entertainer. He performed almost up till the time of his death. Had a long run in Atlantic City that made his brother jealous. Hardeen passed on and few promoted his name. Houdini was promoted by his wife Bess and Edward Saint.

Hardeen wasn't married at the time of his death, had no children as far as I know.

Hardeen was the better magician but Houdini had the better promotion team. At least that is my opinion.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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kregg
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Like actors today who's fame has more to do with how much they can afford to pay a great publicist, than their talent.
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Margarette
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If I'm not mistaken, didn't Keiko Muto win the Stage Competiton AND the Gold Medal at IBM a few years ago? I believe SHE beat out a lot of HEs at the competition. Several someones thought she was good...even better than good...to win the Gold Medal in the competitions. It's not awarded every year.

But, ya know...it's like I tell my kids...it's not important that you BE the BEST, only that YOU DO YOUR BEST! I don't expect anything less from them, and I don't expect anything less from me.

We can argue till the cows come home about who's the best in this and who's the best in that...it all comes down to personal preference...my kids think McDonald's makes the best hamburger...I think Sonic makes the best.

Not many women in magic? So what, all that matters is that we are all doing what we love...and putting our best effort forth. Isn't it better that we all do GOOD magic? Do any of us really want to be known as the magician who screwed up every trick? However, just because there aren't many women in magic, let's not discourage those of us that have chosen magic as a hobby or profession!

Margarette
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bishthemagish
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On 2006-05-30 19:50, kregg wrote:
Like actors today who's fame has more to do with how much they can afford to pay a great publicist, than their talent.

I agree with that kregg and one of the things that Scarne said in his book "The Odds Against Me". That Houdini told him - according to this book - that there will be no better press agent for John Scarne than John Scarne.

John Scarne has skill as a magician and as a press agent.

His books are great and he is well respected in the field of gambling and cheating to this day. But people in magic sometimes forget that the movies he did for Castle films, TV shows he did like the tonight show with Jack Parr, and the books he wrote were all part of the promotion for himself as a self promoter.

Sometimes in magic as well as the other performing arts the "BEST" is only the most "WELL KNOWN" or could be said "MOST PROMOTED".
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sepaternoster
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On 2006-05-30 21:04, Margarette wrote:

We can argue till the cows come home about who's the best in this and who's the best in that...it all comes down to personal preference...my kids think McDonald's makes the best hamburger...I think Sonic makes the best.



Well, I don't care for burgers, but I tend to prefer watching a woman doing just about anything (even eating burgers), so long as she is not ridiculously bad at it.

Woman: God's greatest creation! Smile

Seriously, my first reaction to this thread was that it was far to political for me. I have a self-imposed rule to avoid political/philosophical threads, because I've learned that, on these types of issues, people believe what they believe for reasons that they believe are valid. No argument, rational or otherwise, is likely to change these beliefs.

However, I feel compelled to speak up on this one ("...if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...). In my day job, I'm a computer engineer, which is also a "male-dominated" field. Disclaimer: The following remarks are generalities and are not intended to reflect upon the company for which I work (which is actually one of the most female-friendly in the industry).

Sadly, the women in this field sometimes have to work twice as hard as the men to "make a mark" and be accepted. Once accepted, they can fall back to the 60 or so hours/week that the men put in. Occasionally, they'll still have to re-prove themselves, and, God-forbid, should they ever have an "off day", they'll spend some extra time trying to make up for it.

Worse, there seems to be a "back door" for women. The way can be easier for them if they abandon their femininity and try to become "one of the boys". All that is needed is to cuss like a sailor (no disrespect intended; I was in the Navy myself) and make a few remarks about the breast sizes of other women. I suppose, it could be argued that the men in the "old boys club" are putting on a bit of an act as well. Still, it seems more effort is required for a woman to adopt this caricature.

My point (if I have one) is that, even in a scientific field, where you would expect judgement to be based on merit alone, gender-bias is evident. We have much to do, in many areas, including magic, and I applaud the women who are leading the way!
Seth E. Paternoster
magicalaurie
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On 2006-05-30 22:00, bishthemagish wrote:
he is well respected in the field of gambling and cheating to this day.


There's irony for ya. Smile
Lee Darrow
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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

Does it really MATTER why magic HAS been more of a men's club up to this very time?

Or is it more important to ask the less obvious question:

WHAT CAN WE DO TO CHANGE THAT?

From where I sit, that would seem to be a far more important thing to consider - we have a demonstrable fact - there are more men than women in magic and who are interested in performing magic if the rolls of the world's magic clubs are any indication. Now, how do we, as the predominant gender in this field, go about changing that fact and, perhaps even more importantly - CAN we?

From an overview of certain cultural mores that I have looked at, it seems certain that in certain parts of the world, women will not be allowed into their local magical societies because of the standing laws of the countries in which they live. In others, the magical societies have actually banned women from becoming full members.

Until those rules change, this fact cannot change in those societies and in those countries.

However, in our western, so-called civilized society, we still have some magical clubs that do not allow women to become full-fledged members either, if I recall correctly. If this is still true (and I am not at all certain about this), then this should be addressed as well - should the REST of us force our beliefs on these organizations and pressure them into allowing woment into their ranks?

See how tough this one can get?

Quote:
It is bad to be oppressed by a minority, but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority. For there is a reserve of latent power in the masses which, if it is called into play, the minority can seldom resist. But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason. - Lord Acton


To which I add:

Quote:
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it. -Voltaire, or WIlliam Penn, depending on your source


Just something more to chew on...

Lee Darrow, C.H.
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<BR>"Because NICE Matters!"
magicfish
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What can we do to change that?


Should it be changed?
magicalaurie
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Interesting question, magicfish. If women are being kept out of magic against their will, because they are women, I think it should. Though there may be other freedoms that take priority. Back to how to go about it. You're on, Lee. Smile
tommy
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"Part of the "precipitate"? I don't think it is much to with men magicians they just do their thing. It is the public who call the tune and it is the public that women have to win. Men magicians can't persuade the public to go and see or like women magicians, the women must do that for themselves.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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On 2006-05-31 04:19, Lee Darrow wrote:
I may disagree with everything you say, but will defend unto death your right to say it. -Voltaire, or WIlliam Penn, depending on your source

Defending someone's right to say something is different than endorsing, condoning, or enforcing their philosophy, I'd say.


Posted: May 31, 2006 12:00pm
-----------------------------------------
Quote:
On 2006-05-31 11:52, tommy wrote:
Men magicians can't persuade the public to go and see or like women magicians, the women must do that for themselves.

Any entertainer, male or female, is ultimately responsible for drawing his/her audience. The support of reputable colleagues couldn't hurt, though. Smile
bishthemagish
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On 2006-05-31 11:52, tommy wrote:
"Part of the "precipitate"? I don't think it is much to with men magicians they just do their thing. It is the public who call the tune and it is the public that women have to win. Men magicians can't persuade the public to go and see or like women magicians, the women must do that for themselves.


While the men were away fighting in WW2 here in the USA the Baseball people felt that America still needed baseball. But there wasn't enough men to make up a professional baseball league because of WW2.

So they made and SOLD a WOMAN'S LEAUGE to the public and it did really well. When WW2 ended it was tossed out in favor of the men’s league. Many wanted the woman’s league to continue but the powers in the men’s league did not want the professional competition of the woman’s league getting some of the summer baseball business.

I think that has to do with show business.

Movies tried to kill the live show business in the theaters. They brought out the RKO vaudeville houses and put in the movie and pushed the live entertainment out. Then came TV and TV has just about pushed the live entertainment out.

It is about business and promoting big business.

A woman magician as well as a man makes it to the top by promoting and selling. Skill is secondary and needed to stay there. But it is the magic and magician that is promoted and used as a sales tool as far as getting viewers and selling adds to the viewers.

Houdini knew this and was one of the first magicians to tie in local businesses into his challenge box escapes using the local lumber yards and having them build the box. That was also successful because the employees of the lumber yards would buy tickets to see that show and the box escape.

Magic is a business! And promotion is part of the business!
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tommy
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Magic is a business! And promotion is part of the business! And magicians are not in the business of promoting any one but themselves. Whether they are a man or a women. It is up to you to sell youself to the public.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
bishthemagish
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Right on tommy

If they want to be a success in magic just as in anything you have to be a good promoter and press agent just like Houdini and John Scarne were.

They were successful magicians first by their own work and their own promotion before the magic history people continued to talk about them and then they became part of legend and magic history.

And often that legend and magic history is confused with their real world work and becomes part of the myth and legend of magicians of days gone by.
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Whit Haydn
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Okay. Let the female magicians perform on equal terms.

It is very common for those planning a convention show to book acts for a feeling of variety, e.g., one novelty act, one illusion act, one manipulation act, one comedy talking act, one woman magician. If you can get a woman who does manipulation or illusions, great! But you wouldn't want, say 3 women out of the six performers--that would be too, well, unbalanced.

Anyone that supports equal and fair play should be against such thinking.
tommy
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Whit

Are you talking about a magicians convention? If so what has that do with it? The point is it does not matter what magicians think about each other as far as sucess is concerned. Or does it? I don't know. I mean if all magicians in the world thought Jill was better than Jack, would that matter a jot to the public if they thought otherwise. I have never been to magicians so I don't know what you mean.

Tommy
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
While the men were away fighting in WW2 here in the USA the Baseball people felt that America still needed baseball. But there wasn't enough men to make up a professional baseball league because of WW2.

So they made and SOLD a WOMAN'S LEAUGE to the public and it did really well. When WW2 ended it was tossed out in favor of the men’s league. Many wanted the woman’s league to continue but the powers in the men’s league did not want the professional competition of the woman’s league getting some of the summer baseball business.

I think that has to do with show business.

It has to do with discrimination. It has to do with the men's league having more power, and being able to impose their will. It has to do with a public not sufficiently aroused against the injustice.

If you prefer to call it show biz, so be it. But can't we call things by their real names?

A nice example, though.


Jack Shalom
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On 2006-05-31 18:00, tommy wrote:
Whit

Are you talking about a magicians convention? If so what has that do with it? The point is it does not matter what magicians think about each other as far as sucess is concerned. Or does it? I don't know. I mean if all magicians in the world thought Jill was better than Jack, would that matter a jot to the public if they thought otherwise. I have never been to magicians so I don't know what you mean.

Tommy


Yes, Tommy--this is how a lot of magic conventions are booked.

It is not just about how magicians think about each other.

Women do not have the same chances to show their work, promote products and so on even within our own "fraternity."

They are not hired equally, on merit, but rather are forced to compete against each other for the "woman's slot" on the bill.

It is not a woman competing for manipulation against other manipulators, it is a woman competing against women illusionists, women manipulators, women dove workers, women comedy talking acts, etc. for the one woman's magic spot on the program.

The male magicians do not have to compete the same way for a position on the show. There is room for six or eight men on the bill, but only room for one woman.
bishthemagish
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I don't agree with the discrimination part because I feel it has to do with business and money and what will get the big bang for the buck. Business works by getting the most profit by the least investment.

Men's sports was established, and pre sold.

Woman’s base ball was being accepted.

The biggest bang for the buck was men's baseball. But getting back to magic. A woman magician is and can be sold easier than a man magician. You do not think so? My sister was sold 3 to 1 over my shows. I have more skill and a better act but she was a "Novelty". I know this because we had the same agents.

Later.
Glenn Bishop Cardician

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Publisher of Glenn Bishop's Ace Cutting And Block Transfer Triumphs
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