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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts 
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Card trough the window, I've heard spectators say "How did he get the card trough glass?” never have I heard someone say how did he get the card on the other side of the glass. They know the glass is solid, their mind has been preconditioned to believe this all their live. It is not necessary to prove it and they never think that the card is simply place on the glass from the other side. But you do have to prove it's the same card, their signature is the subtle proof.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27434 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 12:06, Tom Bartlett wrote: I almost agree. Can we go with: their signature is usually sufficient evidence for them to conclude that it is the same card. That work for you ? Interesting trick. If done as magic, you would have them take a card, sign it and walk directly to the window and press... no face down, no deck just go. And NOW finally we have the context for our "need to prove". There is no need to prove what is presumed about common reality, what is obvious or what is evident. However, when we get 'stylistic' about what we do, we TELL THEM to suspect us and the slope goes downhill from there. As magicians, many of us turn two blind eyes to this stylized fussing and go to great lengths to rationalize this awkward behavior to ourselves.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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karbonkid Special user 951 Posts
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Amen, Johnathan!
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22242 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 12:20, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Look at some of the ridiculous moves created in this vain! The Ascanio spread for example. Looks plenty natural to me.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts
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RE: Proving a normal deck of cards.
I stopped showing my deck to be normal, except with an overhand shuffle before I start. I noticed when amateurs show me a card trick, they only show the deck to be normal if they are using a Svengali.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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Tom Bartlett Special user Our southern border could use 763 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 16:53, Josh the Superfluous wrote: Exactly , the less we try to prove the less suspect things are.
Our friends don't have to agree with me about everything and some that I hold very dear don't have to agree about anything, except where we are going to meet them for dinner.
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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Evidence is any fact which tends to persuade one of a fact in issue. The audience decide what the facts are on the evidence. They are a tribunal of fact. Evidence is anything that tends to persuade them of a fact in issue. They decide what the facts are and what they prove. We prove nothing we merely present the evidence, sutle or otherwise.
We can not say this or that has been proved it is they who deicide, just like a jury decides a mans guilt or innocence. Magician: “You will agree your card is lost in the deck?” Spectator: “Actually, no I do not agree as I see you have palmed it, you cheat! Get it?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27434 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 19:51, tommy wrote: Why bring facts into this? Something which COULD influence someone toward a particular position can be evidence. BUT still need an active process of inquiry for any such to have meaning. What motivates the inquiry?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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Somthing? What is "Somthing" if not a fact, that persuads you of another fact?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27434 Posts
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Good of you to ask that question.
Something can be a perception, an inference, a sentiment, a belief, a memory, a statement made by "authority"... lots of somethings go into our model of reality.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22242 Posts
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Josh, thank you for making my point.
You are on exactly the same page as myself, in most cases less is more.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts
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Danny, while I agree with what you and Jonathan are saying, I don't see the Asconio Spread as a good example IMHO.
The spread in Asconio's hands looked entirely natural, to him, which is all that is important. In studying old video of the master, the moves he created for himself garnered no suspicion at all. His stylistic approach was completely uniform with every action he performed. To say that having such an approach is inappropriate, or "awkward" is missing the point of artistic expression. Once again, in my opinion, Asconio, Slydini, and many other greats were hardly fooling themselves with moves that were created in vain. Best, Clark
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Dannydoyle Eternal Order 22242 Posts
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Clark first off I don't think Jonathan was critical of Ascanio. For clairty sake it was only me.
I have seen the tapes you mention. Yea it flowed better than most people who try to do it today. But NATURAL? Nope. Now Rene' Lavand, HE has a natural look out of necessity. So actually does Leanart Green in my opinion. As a matter of fact so does Juan Tamariz. I guess to a point Ascanio does fall into that catagory. BUT I was talking of OTHERS doing his stuff.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus <BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell |
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Clark Special user 957 Posts
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Danny, I never said that Jonathan was being critical of Asconio, nor you actually. I mentioned both of you guys together due to your having the same collective viewpoint on the issue at hand, and as I stated I agree with most of what you said.
I disagree again on the tapes of Asconio not looking natural. Now I know we can debate "natural" till the end of time and get no where, but the fact is that natural is a relative term...a point you made by bringing up Rene Levand as well as Lenart Green. I don't want to beat the natural dead horse, but none of what we do is natural as magicians. Natural, as you seem to see it, would have to be defined as what the largest percentage of people would do if handed a deck, which is drop several cards during every attempt at shuffling and apply a heat crimp in half the deck in the first touch.  If you are not performing this way then you are unnatural to most people that would witness your show.
Seriously though, there is no definition of natural that fits everyone. That being said, I agree, if one picks a person with such a stylistic approach to emulate, the imitator would most likely appear unnatural.
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27434 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 21:38, Clark wrote:... Not sure that there is a "natural". Perhaps congruent, efficient and consistent but no idea about natural. Each character has its own nature, priorities and those seem to give rise to mannerisms.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Clark Special user 957 Posts
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BINGO! Jonathan, one can always count on you to put it more eloquently. Very well stated.
Clark
“The key to creativity is in knowing how to hide your sources.”
Albert Einstein |
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Christian Illusionist Special user Ohio (currently located in Missouri) 503 Posts
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I'm more for subtle, and if direct, very light.
I say this because personally, when watching a magician, the more he says it's not gimmicked, the more I think it is.
We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.
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Josh the Superfluous Inner circle The man of 1881 Posts
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Good one Johnathan.
What do you want in a site? "Honesty, integrity and decency." -Mike Doogan
"I hate it, I hate my ironic lovechild. I didn't even have anything to do with it" Josh #2 |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 15717 Posts
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Quote:
On 2006-06-06 20:32, Jonathan Townsend wrote: Is that a fact? These things are or can be presented as evidence and if they decide to accept them they become facts. If I am a witness in a court case and give evidence stating I saw a cow jump over the moon and that is not challenged that becomes a fact. It could be put to me that that I did not see in reality a cow jump over the moon but imagined it, and I might accept that, if that is accepted by the jury that in itself becomes a fact. Likewise in magic you can’t prove anything unless they accept certain things as facts because we rely on facts to prove things but they decide what the fact are, we do not, all we do is present the evidence and try to get them to accept facts which may or not be reality. If I false shuffle and they accept it was fair shuffle they accept the cards are shuffled so it is accepted fact. In reality they are not shuffled but I have established a fact by presenting the evidence upon which I can rely as fact. If I do not establish facts I have no case. Our case is about proving magic and we can do magic without presenting evidence they that they accept as facts. The logic of the law of evidence in law works the same way as the logic of evidence in magic.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27434 Posts
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Tommy, does this mean you want to discuss the principles which guide our perceptions of what we call knowledge? There is a branch of philosophy dedicated to that discussion.
And the notion of "fact" is not so simple as most of us may wish to believe. Try this to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology Facts don't come with points of view Facts don't do what I want them to for more, see "Crosseyed and Painless" by D. Byrne.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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Posted: Jun 6, 2006 04:06 pm 
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